Hey, hey Hey, welcome to the Black Marriage and Family Therapy Matters Podcast where we connect black families to black therapists. Today’s awesome guest is Dr. Yolanda Fountain. She is a licensed professional counselor, approved clinical supervisor, registered play therapist and supervisor and a Board Certified counselor. She is the owner of Play Wellness LLC in Roswell, Georgia, which provides quality mental health clinical services, supervision and training. She is also the founder of the Child Loss Center Incorporated, a nonprofit that focuses on mental, medical and educational services for grieving parents who have experienced infertility, perinatal, infant and child loss. Dr. Fountain has worked in the mental health field since 2006, and has taught graduate level courses at several universities. Wow. Dr. Fountain, that’s absolutely amazing. Can you fill in the gaps about yourself?
Tashayla
Sure. And thank you for inviting me.
Dr. Connie Omari
Of course, we’re glad to have you.
Tashayla
So I grew up in Georgia. And I went to college undergrad in Alabama, at Alabama State University and studied business management. And then I moved to Georgia, and went to Mercy University for both of my graduate degrees in counseling. And since then I have and I kind of fell into counseling. I didn’t know anything about it prior to because my parent had a adverse and sort of traumatic experience with the whole counseling field, trying to get help for a sibling when I was younger. And so it kind of threw me away. I’m sorry.
Dr. Connie Omari
No, I’m saying okay, that’s awesome.
Tashayla
Oh, yeah.
So when I took my first class, it was quite surprising that it could be helpful in that I actually enjoyed doing it. And that has been my role to try to enhance and advocate for mental health services for black families. I’ve done some work in the school system. I’ve worked in a psychiatric hospital for children, teens and young adults. I’ve worked in the college setting, as a counselor, I’ve worked in a private practice is prior to my own. And so I’ve worked in in home therapy, I’ve done a lot of different settings. So I can understand a variety of backgrounds as well.
Yeah, train supervise.
Dr. Connie Omari
awesome, amazing, amazing. And I realized I keep saying it’s awesome. But what’s awesome is that you have been able to take what have sure was a life changing experience for you, your parents and your sibling, and just really flip that and make that such do such great work in our communities.
Tashayla
Yes, because a lot of people feel that way. And they have a right to considering the history
clinical services towards black Americans.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yeah, well, why don’t we I know, that’s not something we really talked about. But why don’t you just tell me a little bit more about what do you mean about our history? I know what you mean, but you’ve got to
probably want to know,
Tashayla
Well, there’s
in upholding the white supremacist system and racism in America, all of the experiments that were done on black Americans without their permission, out of ignorance, in complete pain, dehumanization. So all of those things really tied into not only, you know, medical models of science that were based on racism, but also mental health model. Yes, we’re based Yes.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yes,
Tashayla
yes. So it’s very important that we have black or indigenous or people of color we pop to provide services to black community in people of indigenous and you know, other people of color. Because sometimes, of course, they rightly so Miss trust the provider who may not look like them, this even if it’s just based off of history.
Dr. Connie Omari
That’s so true. That is so True. And one of the things I really like about your approach, Dr. Fountain and what you can bring to the forefront is you obviously have the clinical knowledge, you have the hands on experience, which I’m sure together works to speak to your compassion. But you also have the business. Because a number you know, this is important because we we connect black families to black therapists, so even though we have black listeners, we also have black clinicians who also follow the show. How would you say your business experience with respect to your education, and of course, now, multiple business owner, how important is that when you really when you have this compassion into the work that you do?
Tashayla
Oh, this is a huge thing for me. Because when I first came into this field, I was bamboozled
by some management.
And I mean, from a perspective of I worked for my first coming out into the field was just chaotic. And I’m so thankful that my school prepared me for what the ethics look like. Because I was able to quickly realize, you know, what, this is not the place for me, and I’m not gonna put my license online because of their own mismanagement plan, their lack of knowledge of the law, and they’re intentful trying to burn out nuclear emissions, because they usually come into the field to help. And so the, I immediately was aware, I had heightened awareness of the need to have effective business practices that not only supported you financially, but also supported the very people, the clinicians who were trying to provide these compassionate services to clients. Right. Right.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yeah, that’s so important. Now, I don’t mind being transparent Like, myself, I’ve made my own mistakes like in that sometimes as clinicians, you know, we have our own, so compassionate about the work that we’re doing and our mission, that sometimes if you don’t have that business piece to complement it, you can really create a problem for yourself. So good for you for having done that work in setting our word. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, it is.
Tashayla
We’re trying to work smarter.
Dr. Connie Omari
And we could go forever on to that, but I really want to, to kind of fine tune this into some of the really, really great work that that I came across you doing. And that is, you know, your emphasis in parenting support, like you said, you were drawn to this. Because of your own personal, you know, story, which I think is awesome. If you don’t know how to lose, use your old story to leverage the power, everything, then, you know, that’s, that’s gonna be, but that’s good that you just know how to do it. It’s not good.
We can’t figure that out. But you
Unknown Speaker
do a lot of plays therapy. Um, or do you? I’m assuming because of the name of your business,
Unknown Speaker
here with the things that I do a lot of
Unknown Speaker
Do you do play therapy? Oh, yes, definitely. Yes. So, um, I want to ask you about that. Because I mean, I’m a clinician myself. And I hear that and I think, you know, even I do some art therapy in my work, but I think we hear the word play therapy, you might not understand what is it? What essentially, is like therapy? And how can that be useful to adults, as well?
Unknown Speaker
Yes, so play therapy is using a solid therapeutic relationship, speaking in the childs on language of play. And so play typically, for most children comes very natural. And it’s also a huge, huge communication medium. And so whereas adults use words and talk to be able to express themselves, most children naturally use play to do that. And so play therapists are trained to essentially read the child’s behaviors, some play therapy theories involve toys. So we, in those theories, toys are their words. And some play therapy theories focus on the relationship and they focus on the relationship of playing with the child to help enhance their mental and emotional and behavioral health. So essentially, in my office, I have selected toys, we don’t do collected toys. I mean, it’s just a bunch of toys that might come from anywhere. They are so open and they have intention and they may point out things and meanings. So it’s very important that we’re intentional about our work. We’re trained to use the play with the children. And so essentially, we use play therapy with it from a theoretical perspective, from ages four to 12. And it sometimes, you know, it cuts off at about 10, depending upon the child’s development. A little bit younger, right? Okay. So the child goes into the play room, they can use the toys, or they can play to share what they’ve been through what they need, or what they desire for the future.
Dr. Connie Omari
Wow, that’s so important, because a number of clinicians that I have for my practice will not work with children under the age of 12. Because they say that they can’t really get them engaged or entertain them. And what I’m hearing you say is, there’s a whole form of treatment. That’s
Tashayla
To be honest with you, I think, in some ways, it can be actually ethically harmful to try to use talk therapy with children. Because a child’s left brain is not fully developed, you know, they say, even the frontal lobe, depending upon your research study doesn’t develop until 21, maybe 29. Right. So thinking about the left brain where you’re focused on using words, that is not all the way developed until like with abstract thinking from Piaget is 10 to 12 years old. And that’s kind of why the cutoff is there. And so we in play therapy, we’re using the right brain to help them process because the right brain forms at around two, three, you know, and so they can use that more fully to express themselves and the expectation to use words. And so I actually get a lot of referrals from parents who say, you know, they tried to use talk therapy with my child, and it just was not working right.
Dr. Connie Omari
So what is so so you do the play therapy with the child now? How, how does that information get translated to the parent? Or what what is the adults role?
Tashayla
Yes, so there are similar to like talk theory, therapy theories, there are multiple play therapy theories, some are evidence based, some are not, we do have a what’s called a non directive, play therapy theory that’s evidence based, and it’s called child centered play therapy. And I actually use that for all of my assessment with children who are first referred because it even beyond whatever I see on the paperwork with the parents tell me, I can really just look at their plate and let them communicate everything they need from underlying issue. There are evidence based family play therapies, and that’s where you can incorporate the families and the parents. And then there’s evidence based what we call directors therapy. Well, there’s one adlerian play therapy, right. But there’s more, but they’re just not evidence based. And so with parents, essentially, it depends on the clinician, how they include the the parent, but I always include my parents, if they’re available, and they’re willing, because for me, when I meet with the child, I’m only meeting with them for you know, an hour a week, maybe twice a week, that parent will be building a relationship with him for the rest of their life, right. And so it’s very important for me to be able to teach the parents some of the skills that I’m using with their child, so that they can deepen their relationship with their child as well. Right? And feel confident in their abilities to have a successful and a healthy parent child relationship.
Dr. Connie Omari
That’s so true. That is so true. Wow. So let me ask you this, there’s a couple of things that are coming Come into my mind. But is there a form of play therapy that can be used with adults?
Tashayla
So yes, there’s not technically a theory. So when we think about play therapy as a theory, we tend to use it with children. However, for teens and adults, it is still important sometimes to integrate what I call just play therapy activity. So not necessarily theoretically based, but just activities that are integrated into your regular kind of top theories like CBT. And so I will actually take like the stop play therapy activities. And if I’m even just thought therapy, talk therapy with the client out incorporate some just thought play therapy activities. And what’s that’s helpful for is for the teen or adult who may have had something traumatic or very complex grief happened to them before the left brain developed. It’s important for them to use that right brain activity processing so that they can still process it for when it got stuck at that age. If you have an adult or team with a traumatic brain injury, they write opinions on the left brain as much and so they really will need to focus on right brain processing activities and even if it’s not play therapy activities, I’m also trying to do Saying therapy. And so I see that that’s kind of parallel to how we use play therapy with children. Are you saying therapy with teens and adults because it’s fully right brain processing, where they have a tray filled with sand. And they have these things called symbols. And so they’ll put different symbols, it can be furniture, it could be people, it could be, I mean, all the way from plant life to housing, and they build these kind of models and pictures in the sand to represent what the right brain needs to get out and process it. And literally, you can do a full sand therapy session, and No words can occur. But a host of therapy can be going on.
Dr. Connie Omari
Wow, wow, this is so amazing. And I know you’ve had to be creative in making this really relevant to our community. But just hearing the way you describe this, you know, not to play on stereotypes, but black people were seen as more expressive, you know, like using our bodies more and being more creative in general, as opposed to talking and this just seems like such a great tool in resource to rely on to, you know, to to, to encourage that type of communication and that type of process.
Tashayla
Yes, and I’ll tell you, that’s why I really love play therapy, because play involves so many different things. I can incorporate art, I can incorporate drama, I can incorporate, you know, yoga, if I’m trained, which I’m getting trained in. You can incorporate all kinds of different kind of expressive and experience or art tools and use it in a therapeutic way and use it in evidence based approach.
Dr. Connie Omari
That is awesome. That is so awesome. I’m so glad that you have shared that with me, of course, but our audience as well to let people know that Listen, if you’re if you’re not wanting to talk or if you’re not interested in talking, you don’t necessarily have to and you can still
meet meet your mental health goals.
Tashayla
Yes, your options.
That’s like my whole premise of the business. I set it up so that if you want to use words she certainly made but if the words, if your pain or your trauma is too overwhelming for words, we have options for you that work.
Dr. Connie Omari
So are you saying that you’ve actually had people go in, like kids go in? And I mean, I’m sure they say like, hey, and stuff, but not say anything in the therapy room about their trauma. And you can
Tashayla
work with multiple children, even if you think about the diagnosis of selective mutism. Not the choice not to or if they have a communication disorder where they literally their brain cannot at the moment, yes, work without, oh my gosh, this is what I mean. Even if you think about it as an adult, there are just some traumas that we did about or that you can’t even put the words to. You don’t feel
Unknown Speaker
overwhelming. You’re on camera.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yeah, I’ve had a number of clients say, I don’t know what I’m feeling. Like, I don’t know, when I’m angry until I’ve thrown my laptop and broken it. You know what I mean? Like, wow,
Tashayla
I also say,
my work like I’ve been providing play therapy for about 14 years. And the more I got into the work, the more I also recognized too, though, that I could be even more preventative because I got into the work because I, you know, I had done some work with some adults, and I realized, you know, what, I’m helping them to heal some childhood wounds. And that’s why it was very important for me early on to start working with children. And the more I work with children, the more I saw, you know, what I might need to go to infant mental health. Because what a and this is where kind of my passion is and where I’ve been studying for about three or four years now. And helping parents even at the prenatal level, learning how to bond with their child in utero and go ahead and start that relationship there. Oh my goodness. Yeah, and so working with zero to five is all parent work in so I’m trying to child parent psychotherapy but all of that is a parent child work and incorporates play therapy so
Dr. Connie Omari
Go go back cuz I might have needed you like last year when I when I was pregnant, but like, Are you saying that there is a mental health treatment where you can work with the mother while the baby is before the baby’s even born?
Tashayla
Yes, and this that’s the way it can be used. There’s not as much research Okay, with for the particular orientation and I use this Child Parent Psychotherapy. There’s also something called First Play Pherapy out in Florida. Now with appropriate training at this year, COVID, you know. But yes, literally it is because even if you think about I learned about a decade ago, I was at this conference, and they were talking about epigenetics, and how, you know, the trauma experience of black people passes literally through your genes.Thinking about how do we recondition in some way, those energy channels that run through our system, so that we can block as much of that trauma energy as possible.
Dr. Connie Omari
Wow.
Tashayla
And so I think that can come in a number of ways. even beyond therapy, like I’m getting trained right now in prenatal yoga, because I want to incorporate that. And I don’t want to get all kind of disheartening here. But thinking about even for black women, the systematic oppression that has led to pregnancy loss, yes, you know, much higher for black, we will use that not only to build attachment with the child that we’ll be living,
but also
with those parents who are heavily grieving.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yes, yes. And if I remember correctly, in your bio, you also spoke about infertility as well.
Tashayla
Yes, yeah, it was, essentially is just Child loss just coming.
Unknown Speaker
That I put all of them under there.
Dr. Connie Omari
But I mean, that’s so true, because we have child loss. And we also have, you know, child conception issues. And I think that is our conceiving issues. And I think that that’s a big deal. Because talking about our history, you know, we’re supposed to be like these baby making machines. And sometimes it doesn’t happen that way. And that’s terrifying to any woman, but especially a black woman who’s seen as someone who is just fertile, and, you know, makes babies.
Tashayla
Yeah, that’s a whole nother set of history itself.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yeah, we can. No, we don’t have to invite you back to talk
Unknown Speaker
about that.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yeah.
What is one thing that you wish black families knew about play therapy?
Tashayla
I wish they knew
that in work and help them. And if they could, for some of them just move past the stigma, look past the history, even if that means seeking out a black clinician.
Dr. Connie Omari
Step Yeah.
Tashayla
Yeah. And I know, and I’ll say, too, because when I first was counseling myself, I only wanted to black. Right, right, right. But in recognizing later, you know, there are other people that can help me who may not be black. But there for me only certain things I can say to black clinicians, and nobody fully understand. Right, right. And so also that they don’t have to wait until it gets bad. A huge part of my business is wellness. Like, I have parents calling like, you know, I’m not quite sure that this is counseling worthy. And I say you know, what your mental health is always working always. Because there’s a distinction between, you know, illness and wellness. And this is your physical body, you also have that with your mental health. And everybody has mental health, everybody. And so a big part is if you want to just do checking in to see if we can prevent and maintain mental wellness. That is great. Like, you know what, let’s just see what they what’s there. And like, even right now, you know, there’s a lot of calls, because just to do checking is like all of this going on Black Lives Matter with the pandemic and COVID it’s just overwhelming for everyone is our you know, having parents calling in to say, Hey, I’m not sure of anything is going on with my child. But I really would like just to check in that warms my heart. And a lot of times, they will be surprised just how much their child is holding in and not verbalizing because they may be trying to put on the face for the family when they see everybody else crumbling around.
Dr. Connie Omari
Wow. What do you see? Oh, where do you see black families struggling the most? And how can they learn from it?
Tashayla
Think what I see frequently is probably just managing child child behaviors.
As always, you know, that’s a
symptom that the outer look of, you know, what always is problematic. But usually there are some things underneath that. Yeah. The behaviors kind of bring them in or being able to manage the behaviors. And so just teaching I mean, there’s lots of handy skills and I would say no parents. I think that There’s this duality of, if I seek out help, it makes me look weak right away, and I am I just, I have a job that I have no training in. And it’s a huge job, you know. And so a part of it is humility, a part of it is trust. A part of it sometimes is just figuring out, you know what, this therapist isn’t the right one for me. So maybe I need somebody who is, you know, so I would just say, you know, the courage and I always thank my parents for their courage, for the courage, not only for their childhoods and health, but it also hate their own mental health. You know, building a parent child relationship is a huge gift.
Dr. Connie Omari
It is, so many thoughts that come into mind. And I know one of the reasons why people struggle with connecting to their children, is because they’ve had their own issues with attracting and connecting with their own parents. And just from what I’m hearing, you say, this seems like a great tool to help because again, even though we are adults, like I could totally benefit from just seeing even my child play and learning from a professional like yourself, and being able to detect, okay, what, what are they saying, by doing this? Or what are they trying to express by doing that as a resource to really connect?
Tashayla
Connect with our children better? Yes, and this is where my, my site I have, we provide intergenerational care.
Dr. Connie Omari
Oh, I love it. I love it
Tashayla
grow. Particularly like if we’re providing child parent psychotherapy, you know, we have like food intake assessment form. And that gives us lots of history about each parent, how parent relationship, and then I help parents make those parallels, you know, how is this showing up in your relationship with your own child? or How has your relationship with your parent totally puts you on the other extreme, providing services, I mean, providing parent, teen to your child. And so always focus on kind of that balance? Like, where do we see the balance? Because it doesn’t help usually to be on either extreme. I’ve had families literally if there is an influence intergenerationally Okay, well, bringing the grandmother or the grandfather, with the parent and being with the child, you know, so that we can all work together on this issue.
Dr. Connie Omari
Amazing. All right. Can you give us our listeners, three resources that you think they might could assess, maybe on their own to help with some of the play therapy, tools or play therapy mindset, or skills?
Tashayla
So
the first one, where they can just do some reading is the Association for play therapy workshop, um, website, not workshop? And as for the number for pt.org? Okay.
Dr. Connie Omari
I’m going to put that in the show notes. She said a for pt.org.
Unknown Speaker
That would that be for
Dr. Connie Omari
PTM? writing it down as we speak, is that going to be for the parent or the child?
Tashayla
That’s where the parent, okay, okay. Well, no, the child’s only job is to come in and play. God.
Dr. Connie Omari
God. I mean, every time you say that, my daughter is five and you would be like the best, you know, she wouldn’t look so forward to seeing you and being able to play, not even realizing that she’s doing some mental health stuff.
Tashayla
Exactly. And that’s what we want the child to expand and do note to though, that sometimes the assumption is that play is always fun. Okay. Okay. However, children can do some serious, serious work and play is seriously therapeutic and can be very focused, whether it’s their grief, whether behavior management, whether it’s trauma, whether it’s just exploring relational issues. There can be lots and lots of mental health work that’s often fun, but sometimes can be serious and therapeutic.
Dr. Connie Omari
Anything that you would like to share about things that you might be reading, or listening to, maybe a podcast or a book resource that our listeners can benefit from.
Tashayla
Oh, do I need to go to my list or podcast? So many right now, and it just depends on you know, how, I guess how deep you want to go, but
See what shows I have on here?
Dr. Connie Omari
Particularly those relating to, you know, play therapy or work with black families?
Tashayla
Oh, well, there’s one called brown ambition. therapy for black girls for play therapy with
those. Yeah, yeah,
Dr. Connie Omari
yeah, well hits the marriage of family therapy matters.
You know?
Yeah, we really are an underserved. We dess, our community desperately needs us. But we are, you know, few and far between. So that’s why I’m glad we get opportunities like this to, to connect you, great, great. People, you know, who are doing this work as well through podcasts to people who need to have access to the information
Tashayla
out there. Also two therapists in the microphone, they often will hear it towards parents in the community, on their topic. Okay.
Dr. Connie Omari
All right. Well, that’s great. So amazing people that other podcasts that we can also listen to learn from this word, work. Let’s discuss the myth. Do you have Are there any myths? If there’s just one myth about play therapy, and black families that you just want to set the record straight on? What would that be?
Tashayla
That we’re just playing with your kids?
Yeah, I would even say that you have to be a perfect parent because it doesn’t exist. Yeah, I am. often have to help parents recognize where their grace and compassion lies. Because that’s very important. And I use this quote, from Yuri lander, who’s actually a white male, but in huge with the child centered play therapy, but he said, it’s not what you did. It’s what you do after what you did.
Dr. Connie Omari
Wow. I love that. I love that.
Wow. You’re bringing you brought such good stuff. Dr. Fountain to our audience. before we let you go, we want to let you know we’re at a point in our show where we do what’s called what’s good. And it’s a part of the show where we apply this information to what could be a real life scenario for our listeners. Are you ready? Let’s see. It’s got to be nice and quick. All right, me Dieisha. Dieisha is an 11 year old African American girl. Her body is well developed, and she’s beginning to experience hormonal changes. She currently wears a size c cup. And she recently started her period. On one occasion, she was at school and she had an accident. Everyone laughed at her. Now she does not want to go to school when she’s menstruating. She experiences heavy cramping, and moodiness. And she doesn’t understand what’s going on in her body. She’s far too embarrassed to talk about this. How could play therapy help her?
Tashayla
Oh, wow. Yes. So I’m hearing a couple of issues in there. One is our wonder how much the parent has shared about her body in celebrating the beauty and the gifts. And even though it doesn’t feel like a gift of her body, right? How much she has learned just about naming her body part. And so that’s one of the things I help parents do for young children or older if needed, and literally naming their body parts because it’s a preventative way to prevent abuse, and how much she knows about the growing body itself. I mean, there’s a book called My Body Myself, helping us with kids or parents with kids, to help them explain their growing body. And so part of play therapy could help her one, explore the different growing parts of her body. It could also help build self worth, because I think that will be a huge thing, even recovering from the sense of embarrassment, right? Play therapy could help with kind of social eels and how to be assertive so that she doesn’t feel like she’s the target of bullying behaviors.
Dr. Connie Omari
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Wow. Such great, such great stuff that you’ve been able to share with our listeners. today. It’s been an honor to have you on the show. You’ve shared so much. I’m sure our listeners would love to be able to follow you online. Where can they find you?
Tashayla
So my website is www.playwellness.nry PL a y w e Ll e. s s.net Ne t. And we’re also on a few social media channels. I tend to keep up more with Facebook, but I try my best with them.
Dr. Connie Omari
Alright, so the main thing is your website and your Facebook page both by the name of your business, correct?
Tashayla
Well, the Facebook is @Play Wellness, LLC Play Qellness. Most of them are here for their social media pages.
Dr. Connie Omari
All right, well, it’s a blessing. I’ll have all that stuff in the show notes too. So we want to make sure that our audience can find you if they need to. Thank you, Dr. fountain for coming to the show. You’ve been amazing. I’ve learned so much. I know our listeners have as well. Thank you so much, and you have a wonderful rest of your day.
Tashayla
Thank you, Dr. Omari
Dr. Connie Omari
Take care. ByeBye.