Dr. Connie Omari
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the black Marriage and Family Therapy matters podcast where we are breaking generational curses in the black community. Today’s guest is Dr. Nashira Kayode. Hi Dr. Kayode. How are you?
Nashira Kayode PhD LCSW
Hello, I’m doing well. How are you Dr. Omari?
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
So, I went into mental health in general after I completed my bachelor’s degree, which was actually in law. So, I initially wanted to be an attorney. And, you know, the piece that I really liked was, you know, kind of what makes people do what they do. So, I got married young and had my first child really young. So, law school was going to have to wait. Yeah, yeah. But I was aware of a Master of Social Work program, you know, and I figured I could kind of still, you know, do that PISA. You know, what makes people do what they do? Have, you know, some of that kind of criminal justice aspect to it. So I figured out how to get the best of both worlds. So to some extent, I kind of fell into the mental health piece, but the criminal justice aspect has always been appealing to me. And then, just out of somewhat luck, some of God’s grace, Senator pointed me where I’m supposed to go. My first real job right after school, after finishing my master’s, was at Metropolitan State Hospital, which basically deals with, you know, most of the people; they’re there for forensic reasons. So they’ve committed a crime, but there are mental health factors. So they come there instead of, you know, spending time in jail or one of the state prisons here in California.
Dr. Connie Omari
Awesome. Awesome. So can you just fill me in because, you know, we see a mind in the TV shows and the documentaries, but what does a forensic psychologist or whatever look like on a typical day? That type of work?
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
Um, so I think it varies slightly, you know, as far as which end of the spectrum you’re on. But a typical day definitely involves a lot of time. You know, your client list includes people who are involved in the justice system. So they may have already been arrested. But perhaps there were some mental health concerns that somebody noticed at some point. We do a lot of assessment, and I’m one of the lucky people that have actually provided a lot of treatment. A lot of people in my field of this mental health piece mostly do assessments, but I’ve actually done the treatment piece of it as well. So a lot of it looks like meeting, you know, these people that somehow have some crime involved at some point and some mental health, or maybe mental health, probable mental health, and figuring out how those two interplays with each other. So maybe they had symptoms, and we’re just completely out of it. And that’s what caused them to do what they were going to do. Maybe they were hearing voices telling them to do whatever it was they ended up doing. But you know, we’re kind of there to make that connection and give a clinical perspective on how the two interrelate with each other.
Dr. Connie Omari
So have you ever been able to say, this person I don’t know was suffering with XYZ, and it may have had an impact on the sentencing or the case?
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
Oh, yeah, absolutely. That’s exactly what we’re there for. The idea is that that clinical piece that we tie together is supposed to filter how they’re dealt with in the justice system. So if we come in and we’re able to validate that mental health piece, you know, it should change the course of how they’re either sentenced or maybe not. In California, we have a couple of new laws that are coming down that allow people to not even be sentenced for these things and get their charges dismissed. We have a diversion court, we have a mental health court, and we just got a new care court that came down from the governor. So they’re, you know, creating these kinds of other paths. And the idea is that once you establish that there’s some mental health in play, their path should look different than someone whose mental health was fully intact. And that didn’t play a role in the commission of the crime.
Dr. Connie Omari
You know, it’s interesting that you are saying that, because, you know, I’ve been transparent with you and have been a trespasser on the show about my own incarceration, but I have a trauma history, and the feedback that I got, and there’s no Clear Connect? Well, I don’t know; I didn’t have somebody like you representing me to, you know, advocate for that, of whether or not the crime was associated with, you know, my trauma. But I was interesting, because my attorney kind of took the approach that, you know, because I was pretty upset with the government as well, you know, in my therapy sessions, because my therapist had written this really detailed assessment about me, but he wasn’t a, you know, forensic My attorney ruled it because he said, Okay, well, if you disclose this, then they’re going to ask for all of your paperwork, all of your mental health paperwork, and then they’re going to know everything. At this time, I had not revealed to the court yet that the system had made a mistake, which is why I committed the crime. So it was in my benefit to hold that information and share it at the very end. So I don’t know, like, I don’t know; I’m just here. And then when I was in there, most of the women that I talked to have some type of at least sexual abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence, something. Yeah, oh, I’m just like, Oh, we’re about where’s the representation for these people? And how could that not factor into some of these decisions? Drug addicts and stuff?
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
So the tricky piece of it is that, at least here in California, every county is slightly different. Even so, you know, you may have the overarching law, but how they implemented it and how you can access it varies from county to county because the counties are actually the ones who implemented it here, at least in California. That’s how it works. So in order to even access some of these things, are these questions even to be raised in your case? You know, hey, did mental health even play a part? Are you sure we want to go down that road? You know, maybe we do, maybe we don’t, but most of the time, it involves your case being transferred to specific courts, which often will even change your public defender or your district attorney. And, you know, there are lots of factors; you know, maybe if you’re not looking at that much time, it may not even be worth it to go down the mental health route. You know, it could be, or it could not be you know, some of that depends on your specific case and what your attorney advises, but you do have to be in those designated courts. There’s even a process to get your case from this general, you know, criminal court or whatever it is to this special mental health court. So yeah, there’s that piece to that. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah, most of the time, they don’t just magically do it; you know, from what it seems, it has to be initiated by the attorney at some point through the court process, even if they are just I think, you know, my client is too mentally ill to even go through what the case is right now and we need to give them time to get better. So they can come back and go through the case, you know, go through trial or what have you? Or, you know, hey, I think there were some mental health concerns that contributed to, you know, this crime taking place. But yeah, it pretty much has to be initiated by an attorney, and especially if it’s not obvious at the time of the crime, you know, obviously, the most obvious ones, get them right. So the person who’s, you know, symptomatic or, you know, in a state of psychosis or something like that, when they’re arrested, it makes it into the police report, and then, you know, the attorney can easily see it laid out there. But if it’s something that’s not, you know, really Yeah, exactly. If it’s not something that’s obviously presenting, it may never even come up without that person telling them, which, you know, again, we don’t know, people just in their own self-awareness don’t always realize, oh, this and this is trauma, we may not even be the same thing. And then, you know, we may not see a connection, or maybe, you know, our attorney doesn’t see a connection, or what have you. So that can get a little tricky, as well as how it’s even, you know, brought to light.
Dr. Connie Omari
Right, right. Right. Okay, well, thank you for sharing that. I actually think that at some point I’d probably like to have you come back because I’m really fascinated by this topic. I know that it’s something that our audience would benefit from. But we did come here for a different agenda; we were going to talk about ourselves and mental wellness. So, gosh, where do we start? Where do I feel like self-care is very cliche? And it’s very easy to say, but do you mind if you could just give us, like, a couple of sentences? Like, really? What does it mean to engage in self-care?
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
So I absolutely agree with you. And usually, when I come on the podcast, it’s one of my favorite topics. So in my professional opinion and experience, self-care is much more than you know. I’m taking care of my hair, I’m taking care of my nails, and I’m taking a spa day. You wouldn’t believe how many comments and stuff I see on that just all the time.
Dr. Connie Omari
always, to Yeah,
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
It’s just always amazing to me that I’m like, but it’s really about the process of whatever it is that you’re doing that makes you mentally, emotionally, spiritually, well, whatever that is. So if in the course of you, you know, getting your hair done, when they’re shampooing you, if that helps you to relieve stress, it helps you to feel calmer, or, you know, enable wellness like that, then that would be self-care for you. Or other people who don’t, it’s just another chore; I’ve got to make sure I look good. You know, it’s not just caring for you. Yeah, but it’s not so much tied to the action of it. It’s what it does for you mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically, because we do, you know, physically have to be well, and those other things won’t be well either. So, you know, so Karen conferences, more than that, can be to us prayer time, it can be journaling, it can be taking a walk outside, it can be making sure that you eat healthy and balanced meals, it’s literally whatever you need to actually be totally well, and it doesn’t have so much to do with these things that have been marketed to us as self-care, you know, unless those things do help you in those areas, then great, that counts for self-care for
Dr. Connie Omari
you. I’m so glad that we’ve taken it in that direction, because this morning, in particular, I got up and I just, I mean, I really have had a really bad night and woke up and was just not in a good space and had a lot to do today. This is one of the things that was and just know from, you know, there will be times, especially with what I’ve been through, where I would just give the day up and just say, You know what, forget it. I’m not going to do anything; I’m just going to sleep. But I made an intentional decision today that I was going to take back my day, and I didn’t have the means to get my hair done. And she could tell her, Go get my nails done, or anything like that. But I could pray, you know, and I could just ask God for wisdom because I think what happens is that sometimes we even tell ourselves, I don’t have time to do dinner, let alone get my hair done or get my nails. You know what I mean? Like that, but you do have a moment while you’re cooking dinner to say thank you to God for this dinner. Thank you for this electricity and this stove, and you know, whatever it is, and I talk about God because that’s my thing. I recognize that everybody doesn’t do that. But I want to let people know that they have permission to engage in self-care in a way that’s useful for them. And I was proud of myself because I gave back my day—you know, everything that I lost for whatever time I had invested in being angry, I was able to get back and increase on it because I made an intentional decision to say, No, I’m not going, I’m going to take care of, I’m going to give myself what I need. Yeah,
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
Yeah, absolutely, definitely. That’s really what it’s all about, whatever it is: giving yourself what you need. And usually, you know, especially these days, you know, everything is stressful, everything is high, you know, output. It’s, you know, what fills you back up, what makes you feel well, what makes you feel okay, just to get through the day. And oftentimes, we can’t make it things that are either financially straining, you know, our extensive, or, you know, Doris, things that you just can’t really do every day. I’m going to have a spa day. If you’re a mom and you work and you know, things like that, then that may be a realistic expectation to be able to maintain regularly. But you can pray every day. Maybe you can take a 10-minute walk. You know, there are other things that you can do to stay well, and maybe you get to do those big things occasionally, but yeah,
Dr. Connie Omari
yeah. This isn’t to say you don’t want your self-care to become another task. Yes, you know what I mean. Like, another, like, Oh, yes, it’s just, yeah, I’m
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
I’m totally one of those people. So you know, when people are like, Oh, get your hair done, get your hair to be on, that’s that I do that, because I have my thing relaxing or really enjoyable about those things, but with the time it’s really another task. And even if it was something, by the time you get in the car and you’re stuck in traffic, it costs so much. And you know, this and that, and blah, blah, blah, and you know, it takes all day just to get an appointment. And this isn’t a chore; this is a chore.
Dr. Connie Omari
It’s not as good as it would be if you did it, you know? Yeah. Every once in a while, I’ll do it, but yeah, that’s not yeah. So anyway, giving people permission to self-care in the way that they really care for themselves.
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
Yes, absolutely. Even so, you know, I’m happy you bought into the faith-based aspect of it. I actually get the most criticism about self-care from Christian women. Oh, yes, you’re going to be, you know, and I didn’t see that coming. So in part, that’s why, you know, when I come on the podcast, he likes to talk about self-care. And although so much of my background is, you know, forensic and things like that, And part for me doing the forensic, I’ve just seen so much of, you know, our systems catch people late, you know, we’ve caught them at the end, we’ve caught them where self-care, you know, their past that, you know, their their past, you know, this and that, you know, they’ve had trauma, or they’ve just had hard lives or are, you know, maybe they just have, you know, severe mental illness from biological effects, you know, just whatever, but we’ve caught them at the end, you know, oftentimes, the forensic setting is the end, you know, we’ve caught them at their worst, we’ve caught them in a space that, you know, is not as, you know, productive as if we would have caught them somewhere else. So I like to just give tips, and, you know, really, how do we reach the average person with how to stay mentally healthy? Well?
Dr. Connie Omari
Very good, very good. That was very, very helpful. That was very, very useful. Well, as black, you said, pushing women are giving you a hard time; I’m assuming black women are as well. No,
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
I think that for black women, I see a different kind of twist.
Dr. Connie Omari
to it, which is.
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
We spend a lot of time taking care of other people. It’s almost so ingrained in us culturally, you know, from a societal standpoint, you know, going back to, you know, the mammy figures and things that, you know, were the first presentations of black women, you know, on media scales, that it’s, we’re always taking care of somebody else, you know, we’re always right. And we’re supposed to be selfless. And we overcome, and we can endure this, and we can do that—you know, the whole strong black woman narrative. I think I see more of that for us that prevents us from, you know, really engaging in self-care and the wellness that we really need to do to take care of ourselves.
Dr. Connie Omari
Can you give our audience some time? I know we have to be sensitive to your time. Can you give your audience one tip that they can do to kind of break through that? Because I would love for some black women to be able to come from this podcast, forgive my son, and don’t self-care. We just couldn’t keep going. Okay. If
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
I’m with you; I know how it is.
Dr. Connie Omari
What can they do to be able to really engage in self-care, irrespective of societal expectations?
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
I think the number one thing is to give yourself permission to do so. And what is the permission? Giving yourself permission to say, It’s okay for me to put myself first; it’s okay for me to take time to myself; it’s okay to make myself a priority, even if it’s just 10 minutes a day or 20 minutes a day, you know, allowing you to be human and to have those moments and times where you need this in order to be well; and allowing ourselves to have that space to say, I’m not okay; this is what I need to do. I need this for me, and I need that for me. In order to be okay, in order to be well, I think, you know, that’s the first step, right? It’s just permission. And then, just to be curious, you know, what does it make me feel? Well, I know that even when I started this, if you’d asked me those same questions a few years ago, I would not have known that you wouldn’t have had an answer. I still struggle with that sometimes, you know, like, what do I like to do for fun? Not what do I do for other people that require somebody else, but what really fills me up that I can tend to on my own, whether that’s praying, exercising, walking, or making sure you get a 20-minute nap a day and maybe putting the kids to bed 15 minutes earlier? So up to 15 minutes of alone time? It could be absolutely anything, you know, but just exploring, like, what would make me feel better When I do this, I feel better emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. So just being curious and allowing yourself to explore those types of things are, I think, the two main things to do really quickly.
Dr. Connie Omari
Where can we find time? Because I think that, Pete, we think it has to take, like you said, an hour to do. So what are some creative ways you can get the time to engage in self-care?
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
I think it depends on what it is. So, like, I know, for me, praying was always a big one. I used to pray on the way to work, you know, when I’m in the car by myself. Sometimes you have to try to kill two birds with one stone. But that was, you know, from the time I drop off the kids to the time that I get to my office, I’ve had some time to be quiet, or maybe even use that time to listen to music that you like, podcasts that you like, or something like that. But I think the biggest thing is that we can all fit in 20 minutes somewhere. And maybe we’re already doing it; maybe we just need to be cognizant of doing more. It could be, you know, I talked to my friends on the phone; that’s what makes me feel better engaging with, you know, someone else.
Dr. Connie Omari
I care exactly once I feel guilty about talking on the phone. But this actually makes me feel better. So, exactly 10 minutes away from what I’m doing to listen to this person and engage with this person, I’m going to do that.
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
Exactly. Maybe you’re already doing those self-care things. So it’s a matter of, you know, doing it a little bit more. So maybe, you know, okay, I only take time to talk to my friends once a week. But you know, I really enjoy that time when I come off the phone feeling refreshed and rejuvenated. You know, it gives me motivation and energy to move on to the next thing. So I’m going to try to see if I can do those three times a week instead of just once.
Dr. Connie Omari
Very good. I love this. I love this. I love this. So we’re just going to have to have you back because you really are dropping some gins, and even though it was only a little bit of time, we can vote today. It was still very meaningful and valuable. And I appreciate you sharing that with
Nashira Kayode, PhD, LCSW
you. Thank you for having me, Dr. Omar, and I’ll definitely come back. Please do fun topics, which I’m sure we can cover.
Dr. Connie Omari
Absolutely. All right. Well, that is all we have for you today. Thank you for tuning in. Peace and blessings. Dr. F.