Welcome to the black Marriage and Family Therapy matters podcast where we connect black families to black therapist. On Mondays, you will receive direct therapeutic support from a licensed therapist or professional connected to the mental health field. They will provide therapeutic and educational resources to help you have a healthier relationship with your family members. On Wednesdays, you will receive direct tips and resources to help you get through the stuck places that prevent many people from having relationships with their families and significant others that they desire. On Fridays, we want you to visit our blog which can be found at WWW dot black MFT matters.com which holds additional resources and action steps that you can begin implementing immediately to improve your relationships. This is necessary because we love that you are listening. But we want you to take action to while you are there. Please grab our A to Z relationship bootcamp and be provided with the skills you need to immediately communicate better within your relationships. Please note that while the therapists on podcasts are therapists, they do not serve as your therapist unless you have signed a confidential agreement with them confirming that relationship. Thank you in advance for listening. And we hope you are inspired. All right. It’s time for the show. Here is your host, Dr. Connie Omari.
Dr. Connie Omari
Hey, hey, hey, and welcome to the black Marriage and Family Therapy matters podcast where we connect black families to black therapists. We have a guest today and her name is Latoya. Hi, LaToya. Hey, how are you?
Latoya Nelson
I’m doing great. I’m so happy to be here.
Dr. Connie Omari
Good. We’re happy to have you. Latoya, if it’s okay with you. I’d like to give my guests a little introduction about you and then we’ll get right to the interview. Is that okay? Yes, that’s perfectly fine. Um, so, Latoya Nelson is a licensed clinical mental health counselor and the founder and owner of Lotus Wellness Center. Based in Raleigh, North Carolina. Latoya specializes in helping people recover after the devastation of divorce, as well as educate on divorce provision. Latoya has published two books so far. Our journal is a couple’s journal that helps couples connect and grow by improving their communication. My divorce journal is a guided journal for those in divorce recovery, who are seeking to heal from your past relationship and move forward when Latoya isn’t changing the world through her amazing work she does with clients and companies. So Tony loves to spend time with the two twins that she loves, travel and tend to her garden. Wow, Latoya, that’s awesome. Yeah. What a blessing. You know, you’ve written two books, not one, but two.
Latoya Nelson
Yeah, two definitely. And for different audiences. So it can just help.
Dr. Connie Omari
Absolutely. So let’s start with the first one is our journal.
Latoya Nelson
That is an awesome couples journal that helps people connect and reconnect. Oftentimes, I find in dealing with families, kind of working through their issues. And hopefully, preventing divorce communication isn’t something that is still on the table are still effective, are still working, so are really trying to there so they can reconnect and grow their love.
Dr. Connie Omari
And just again, so in your work with couples, do you find that communication is one of the biggest issues in general?
Latoya Nelson
Yes, I find that either we are communicating to when, and not necessarily communicating to resolve the issue, or we don’t feel that we’re heard. And that also all usually starts to kind of create a breakdown in the relationship because if you know, if your partner is here, and you then it makes it harder to you know, really want to love them and really wants to support them and take care of them because you don’t feel like your needs are being met.
Dr. Connie Omari
That is so true. And it’s funny because I feel like every time I talk to someone about communication and relationships, it’s like either or either I’m not being heard, you know, or the other person is like talking too much or, you know, not knowing how to communicate like I think what I see a lot is that people are just having a hard time finding that happy middle piece.
Latoya Nelson
And I really feel most of the couples I work with when they attempt to communicate, it’s usually verbal right there in your face, and we’re looking at all that nonverbal stuff when they roll their eyes or when they smile or, and very rarely are we communicating to resolve the issue. It’s all a battle. And we’re not working as a team. So, couples journal really kind of gives the feel of the old school your eyes only type letters. And allows people to put first what they love about their partner. Or what’s not working. It’s when right love with you. Yeah, so I love about this relationship. So there’s an intro section that really helps the couple reconnect to why this all started, how did we get here? And part of how we got here? Where are we together? Something that definitely has helped a lot of couples so far.
Dr. Connie Omari
Okay, good. I like that. I like that. So is this something that you’re supposed to do with your couple at the same time? Do you both need a copy of the journal? How does that work?
Latoya Nelson
No, it is one journal that you share. And it has designed to where you would write your message to your person, and you can send them a quick text or leave it in a central location. So they know that it’s their chance to pick it up, read what was written and respond. So it’s designed to be a journal where you’re writing back and forth and you’re able to read doing really well, what, you know, I felt loved when he or she did a, b, and c. So it’s something that you get one journal at last 90 days, and you pass it back and forth.
Dr. Connie Omari
So it’s your little secret as a couple nine, that is awesome. I like to help come up with ideas on your own.
Latoya Nelson
Yeah, well, it was something in high school that I remember doing with my friends, we would be a composition book, back and forth.
Dr. Connie Omari
When I started that, that was before the texting days.
Latoya Nelson
Before, before Facebook before? Messenger. Wow. It’s something where I have to remind couples that communication isn’t always verbal, via text, it can be an email, it can be a journal, we need to find what works in that moment. Because not all the time, can we just sit there and look at someone across the table and not get triggered? Right? Right? To get those feelings out, and, you know, feel like we’re heard because we’re not they’re just again, kind of fighting to be heard. It’s all written down. So the great thing about the couple’s journals that there’s also checking routine to see if you feel loved by your partner that your partner is feeling loved by you.
Dr. Connie Omari
Okay, so I normally wait to the end to answer sorry, no, no to ask about, like, where we can find it. But I just want to make a note now because I’m gonna get this journal, because we need that. So where can we get it?
Latoya Nelson
You can find it at Barnes and Nobles, as well as on if you’re local to the Raleigh area. It’s also at the crow, quill Ridge bookstore,
Dr. Connie Omari
I know exactly where you’re talking about.
Latoya Nelson
Yeah, you can get it there and they’ll be able to get you one. And you can also go on my website and you know, order it online for those.
Dr. Connie Omari
Okay, so we’ll hit back on it at the end as well. But I definitely wanted to move to make a mental note of that. So your other one is my divorce journey. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Okay, but it is also a journal.
Latoya Nelson
Yes, it is a guided journal individually. For a person who’s recovering from the devastation of divorce. There’s so many feelings that come up regarding that, and I’ve heard this, we’re quick to move to our next relationship, or just one better move to the next thing. We don’t stop to process what we’ve been through. And sometimes the divorce can be very, very traumatic, even if you’re someone who wanted it, it can be transition after can be very traumatic. So it’s important process of skilling.
Dr. Connie Omari
That’s so important because I run a course called Embrace your inner relationship goddess. And basically we empower black women to get ready for relationships and a couple of the people that are in the course now were just telling me who are one is going through a divorce and one has already been through divorce. She compared that to the death of a loved one.
Latoya Nelson
Yeah. Oh, definitely. Because it’s a major loss. We have this idea of when we get married of what this relationship is going to be and you know, the death do you part part? And we get married.
Dr. Connie Omari
Wow. She couldn’t even present it like that. So that’s what it is like death. Did you hurt?
Latoya Nelson
Yeah. And it’s hard because we have this vision of what’s going to happen. We, you know, we’re optimistic. We never get into a marriage thinking I’m gonna give this five years and it’s not gonna work. You know, you always go in thinking I’m a beat and rocking and chairs on the patio with sweet tea with this person and are seven years and at. So when.
Dr. Connie Omari
So I don’t I don’t work too much with the divorce population. I want you to clarify that a little bit because I think I was under the impression and I don’t know if you can everybody but I thought people did kind of think of divorce a little bit more, are you not from your practice, you don’t see that, from my practice.
Latoya Nelson
I see that when people are at the altar, and they are, you know, getting me or they’re excited. They’re envisioning this life with this person. Very rarely, in the people that I work with, have they considered this may end before I want it to write, they don’t necessarily consider that, oh, in three years, we’re going to be divorced or in five years, we’re going to be divorced or in 15 years, you know, this relationship is going to end they definitely come to it with that hope and that strong will to make it work. Okay, so oftentimes the guilt comes when they didn’t score, it didn’t work.
Dr. Connie Omari
Oh, well, let me ask you this follow up. Because even though I don’t do too much couples work, you know, I do work with like healthy relationship skills. And one of the things that I hear a lot is in marriages, when they’re angry with each other, they’ll say, Okay, well, we’ll just get a divorce. If you don’t do this, we’re gonna get a divorce. How do you think all that plays into when people are at like, are you finding people who actually get divorces began by making those little threats, which kind of made it a little bit more real that it could happen,
Latoya Nelson
I find that once you’ve made that threat, you’ve already thought about it. Mm hmm. And it’s something that individually either has already been on your radar. And you’ve thought what, what it may look like what life may look like, if we weren’t in this relationship, but very rarely to be kind of just, it just come to mind, and we’re thinking about it. And that’s to say it out loud, because that can be a shock to the other partner. And granted, sometimes, you know, hurt people hurt people. So if we are in an argument, and you’ve hurt me, and I’ve kind of pulled out all the stops of what I know, that hurts you, that may be my last ditch effort to create some distance between us. So it’s, I’ve found that, you know, sometimes that can be the worst thing you say is, you know, we’ll just get a divorce in the CBO. Or because very rarely, that’s not what we want to be heard. We want to be listened to, we want a resolution. But we’re also hurting, that we want to hurt back. And it’s hard to have those emotions at the same time and decide where to go.
Dr. Connie Omari
And our conscious, like, I want this to work my very good. Very good. Wow. Okay, such great, great feedback. What do you wish black families knew about divorce?
Latoya Nelson
I wish our families knew that it was not the end of the world. I think oftentimes, our culture is quick to just stay in something because we do. And we feel like the worst is the scarlet letter. And you know, things will never be the same. It’s breaking up a black family, which we, you know, we we always don’t want to do. But I find that many times, we’ve stayed in things a little bit longer than we should for the sake of being married. And we think that our world is going to come to an end. And that’s not true. It’s definitely not easy. And it should not be a decision that’s made lightly. But I also don’t think it’s something that is as bad as we have been told it is. And you know, it’s one of those things where I’ve had clients who have mentioned that, you know, my mom has wished she’d gotten a divorce. But she kind of stayed and it because that’s not what our family does. That’s something that we’ve passed on those values that can hold us hostage. So I just wish black families know that it’s not the end of the world, you can recover. You can still have connections with your children, you can still have a great co parenting relationship with the other parent if their kids involved. But it’s not the end of the world.
Dr. Connie Omari
Latoya, do you find that sometimes in your practice, you have members that will divorce will not divorce but they’ll separate maybe they’ll be with another get another relationship or have other children. Do you ever see that?
Latoya Nelson
So that’s something that I haven’t yet seen in my practice, but that have seen that in my family where where they’ll just be technically still married, but are separate, separated and have lived their life as if they’re not. And they have yet had that kind of life situation that forces him to make it legal. I’ve had, I haven’t seen that in my practice, as most of my clients are kind of ready to make that break and officially start their life in a new direction. That’s something that I’ve definitely seen in my family.
Dr. Connie Omari
Good. Oh, let me pick up one. I just think you said though, are you saying that sometimes people come to you while they’re getting divorced to kind of have help with that? Or is that what you’re saying?
Latoya Nelson
Yes. So some of my clients are in the period of separation. So each state has different laws regarding when you can get a divorce.
Dr. Connie Omari
The state I’m in here, North Carolina, it’s crazy. Yeah.
Latoya Nelson
We have to wait a year and a day, pass the day where you guys have different addresses in order to get the finalized for the court to give the divorce decree, whereas some states are not that way you can go in and you know, an hour later have the divorce paperwork.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yeah, I’m so I’m like, in multiple states, and it kills me because the clients in Georgia, they get like 31 days, 31 days, you could be in the same house, even the same bed here, like you just you just ask for yours, you know, yes.
Latoya Nelson
And you know, and some people don’t know that. So they don’t know what the laws are. So part of what I do is educating that you know, it is a year in a day and a year in a day can be a long time to want to no longer be connected with this person. But it also allows you that time to really see what life is like without that, and see if you can reconnect with that person, because it’s possible that you guys can work through some of the concerns and issues and requests. So it can be different in each part.
Dr. Connie Omari
Good, good. Well, let me ask you this. And I know there’s no one size fits all, but but like you said, the purpose of doing that is to kind of see if you are going to be going back and forth. And if there’s an opportunity to salvage what you have, is there any type of like, is there anything you can add to like, when it’s time to? Like, how do you know like, this is the last time like, you know, the divorce needs like, like, we need a divorce? This is not something that we can work through. Are there any signs that people can look for for that?
Latoya Nelson
So I definitely think a big portion of that is personal to each person, I think what I’m willing to accept and work through may be different than what you are the networks. But I definitely think there’s some clear for safety concerns when abuse is involved. Yeah, yes. And then also when that person is just not willing to work on it. When it’s become a you do it my way, or you don’t do it at all, and they become an immovable object that can really show you how far they’re willing to work on things. And may sense that that’s just how things are going to be. And I definitely encourage folks to when it gets to that point, what is our exit strategy? Because there’s a lot more to take to be accounted for other than just I’m leaving this person, if there are children involved, what does that look like? Then it becomes what is custody? Are you financially able to leave? And you know, what does that look like making sure you have all the the main documents you need for your financial health and security, as well as finding housing, you know, some women and some people are financially tied to their spouse. Yeah, and leaving can look a lot different than if a person has their own, you know, nine to five job and their own bank accounts and their own vehicle in their name. It’s a different situation. So sometimes people come to me and they need to kind of have some solutions regarding I’m ready to leave. But what does this look like? Because if I leave now I’m going to a shelter. And that’s not stable, that’s not good for my kids. How are we coping right now and getting what we need for our exit strategy was still holding that things may change and the relationship may work. But giving ourselves that option. Good.
Dr. Connie Omari
I love that. And I love that you help people during that stage because I think people look at therapy as either couples therapy or individual. And they don’t think that sometimes that that is that kind of middle ground, like you’re still coupled, but you’re working towards individual. And that was you know, it’s good to get some help with that.
Latoya Nelson
Yeah, and I find that a lot of people in that situation feel alone, because we don’t want to talk to our friends. You know that me and my spouse or things have gotten so worse that I’m planning on ending this relationship, right. Maybe we can’t talk to family members because they love them, or they hated them and they’re gonna say I told you
Dr. Connie Omari
I told you so. Alright, so anytime Good judgment in general. And I have to say, I think that, that makes it really hard for us really to do a lot of things in our community, you know, like, you know, we don’t make it safe for people, I didn’t get married to this man, thank God, but I was in a relationship one time that, you know, I really shouldn’t have been in. And I can admit that now. And I can see that now. But God, it took me like, longer than it should have, because what is so it’s so fun to think, you know, so and so said this, and, you know, whatever. And we actually, we think we’re doing a lot with a lot of times we think we’re helping, but honestly, the only person who said it best, only I know what I can do in my relationship, only, you know, what you can deal with in your relationship. And when you put extra stuff on it, extra layers, extra judgment extra, whatever I mean, now, less, like you said, the abuse thing, if you see somebody, you know, abusing your loved ones, you know, try to help them. But you know, for the most part, we do a lot of that, and it makes it really hard. And I just know, I’ve wasted, you know, years of my life. And and I don’t regret it, because I learned so much from it. But you know, I could I know, I could have thought clearly if I didn’t have so many distractions.
Latoya Nelson
And that’s the goal of the work I do is to really get folks to the point of where they’re able to reflect back on it and see what the lessons were, what were the landmines? Yes. And how can we take those things moving forward? Because you know, we’re going to have friends that are going to be dealing with this with the divorce rate as high as it is, we know somebody who has either had a divorce or is in the process. And you know, sometimes we go through our things. So it’s a testimony as we help others over that mountain. So I want people to be able to really process what did this do for me if this was the way that things were supposed to work out? And divine intervention? What was the purpose of this? Because very rarely do we go through struggles with adolescents? And if we went through it without a lesson, we didn’t do it. Right. And there we go. And I want us to know what that is.
Dr. Connie Omari
I’m trying to think of this quote, I will tear quote up in the heart in a heartbeat. But it was so good. It was something to the effect of if you don’t learn to pass, gotta keep giving you the test, you know? Yes. You bet. You bet. In other words, you better figure out what what were the message was what you should have been learning the first time Yes, learn it the first time. And that’s in that kind of brings me into my next question, because what types of things can we learn from divorce?
Latoya Nelson
So we can definitely learn from divorce our own relationship pattern, I find that there’s usually a pattern of relationships we’ve gotten into, it just so happens that this one is the one we married. Got it. So there’s something we’ve done in that relationship that we do possibly in other relationships, whether it’s with family members, whether it’s with friends, co workers, very rarely are our relationships, patterns just singular to our marriage. Usually, it’s something we’re doing. So it can definitely help us to take a look and see, are we communicating the best way that we can? Am I making my needs known? Or am I just hoping them at person reads my mind? And when things get rough? Am I reading? Do I fight or flight when we have an argument? So I think there’s a lot of things that divorce even the transition after can tell us about ourselves, and the relationship we’re in because if I’m after a divorce or when my relationship is ending, how am I coping with that? And is it in a way that is supportive of where I want to go? Or is it maladaptive? Am I doing things that are harming myself or steps to self sabotaging that I wouldn’t have seen because in my marriage, I had this other person to save me from myself. So I definitely think there’s a lot if we’re open to it, and sometimes we are sometimes we’re just not there yet. But if we’re open to analyzing it, we can get to know more about who we are but then also the direction we want to go to.
Dr. Connie Omari
Can I know this? This can’t be just me again, this is not my specialty. But I do like you said know people who have been divorced and please speak on this because a lot of it I hate to say it but women and because I’m talking about our people, black women. Bitterness in a like, like, like, let me be clear if someone hurts you advise like she I’m not saying you’re not entitled to your feelings. Okay, this is you know, we’re all about expressing that. But can you speak to everything I heard you say had to do with what the person is bringing to the relationship. Can you speak to saying Things let you know, you know what, he didn’t do this, he did this. I’m like you’re learning the lesson?
Latoya Nelson
Yeah. Even that in itself, when we’re not able to look and see our role, we’re just not there yet. Because we have to there’s, there’s my mom always said, there’s three sides to the truth, there’s hers and the actual truth. Just because we see things very differently. And if we’re not willing to acknowledge the part that we played in it, or even our emotions or feelings about how that person is behaving now, then we’re not yet in a place to really get the lessons from it. Because we cannot control someone else, we would have been able to control them in the relationship, we’re not surely not going to be able to control them when we’re not in. But a lot of that speaks to just unmet expectations. Oftentimes, when we thought that, you know, that, quote, unquote, deadbeat would be doing something, we expected them to do that thing that we feel they should be doing, whether that is realistic or not. When that expectation is not met, then the resentment comes, the anger comes. And unfortunately, that can be vocalized, and potentially, sometimes in front of the children and yeah, matched up some relationships.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yes, yes. Yes, absolutely. I’ll leave my opinion out Woody Williams. silent, but I will say one of the things I really respected about her and her divorce is, she really hasn’t spoken a lot about it. And one of the things she said was, you know, what good is it? For me to insult my husband when I married him, you know, like she was, she’s married to him, like 20 years. So, you know, if he was that bad if all she can do is identify the bad what would it say about her? As a person?
Latoya Nelson
Yeah, that’s the person you chose. You love this person. loves them. You love the bad thing? Yeah. Now, in the beginning, yes. A lot of it is just kind of reconciling how, at what point did this person show me who they are now? And not believe?
Dr. Connie Omari
Exactly, and that is yes. And that was my follow up. Why am I just now seeing it? You know, yet? My yah, yah, yah.
Latoya Nelson
My Angelou said, when a person tells you who they are believe in, you know?
Dr. Connie Omari
Is there any one thing that because I’ve heard that money is the number one cause before so for infidelity is what do you see the most of in your practice?
Latoya Nelson
So I find that oftentimes other than just improper communication, and then which leads to arguments? And the thoughts around finances? Oh, money? Yeah. Okay. So maybe that they have enough money, but how they’re managing it isn’t working. For the simple fact that sometimes, folks are using money as power. I bring in most of the money I make the decisions that get in with money. A lot of that is communication. What do we have? How are we using it? Are we both valued in this process of determining where our resources are going? And that can be a very big issue.
Dr. Connie Omari
Very good. I can’t believe I missed that one. But that makes a lot of sense. A lot of sense. Do you have any specific advice that you might would give someone who wanted a divorce?
Latoya Nelson
So I would, of course, first encourage them to connect with a therapist, so they can process what is going on? You know, why do we want it? Is it something that can be fixed? Is it something that can be worked towards? What are we hoping to get out because again, very rarely do we want our relationship to end. But we feel like we’ve gotten to that kind of last point of where we’ve tried everything. And there’s just this is the only clear option because I’m unhappy. So I definitely connect with them because you’re gonna want to have a team together, in addition to a therapist, a finance person and a lawyer potentially. But first starting there, so you can have that sounding board of this is what I’m experiencing. How can I make sure I’m happy? So other than that, then to just take stock of what how are things now? What do you want them to look like? Because oftentimes we don’t want to move out of our home, we don’t want the kids going to different schools, we don’t want to have to change our life. But we have to decide, is it worth it? Are we going to risk those changes, you know, for this thing that isn’t going right. And like I said, those, those major safety concerns abuse, physical, mental, emotional, you know, those things are usually a no brainer. But if it’s a we can’t communicate, or we’re having the same fights, and even sometimes infidelity can be overcome. But I need
Dr. Connie Omari
Yeah. Yeah, I hear. Yeah, I agree. I mean, if this isn’t, you know, to pass judgment, but I think you can, you’re certainly the expert on this. But in terms of infidelity, a lot of times when when a person commits infidelity, we want to look exclusively at the action. Again, I’m not blaming anybody, for not looking at the variable surrounding it. But one thing I know, in particular, is that when a woman does it, a lot of times she’s really emotionally vulnerable. And so yes, it’s wrong for her to be unfaithful. But if her spouse is being emotionally, you know, negligent and withdrawn, that’s also wrong. And when you want to get the root of it, sometimes the other things can be cleared up.
Latoya Nelson
Is that what you see? Exactly? Yes, definitely. I think it infidelity on the surface is a symptom of a bigger problem.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yes. Okay.
Latoya Nelson
Yeah, I find that there’s an issue that’s been going on for longer than the infidelity has. And it’s just gotten to that point. The question then is, is both parties willing to kind of look at that root issue, because sometimes when we’re the victim of infidelity, to say that I did something that you know, would make you, we don’t want. But we also understand that, you know, if something isn’t quite right, how can we expect someone to just stay in kind of a ship that’s sinking? Absolutely. Reach for help here or reach for help there?
Dr. Connie Omari
It can just want to ask a follow up question to this is because and I’m just thinking about, I am thinking about one person I’m working with now, who’s going through this? And unfortunately, you know, the male is the one who did it. How can a man I was what can we do? Because because I’m thinking about another client that I work with who isn’t male who’s doing this and is struggling big time he is struggling, one to start to, to convey to the woman that he does want to be with how much he almost feels like because he’s caused her so much pain, that he’s done so much damage, and there’s nothing that can be done. So I’ve seen it on this extreme, or in the first example, but the the man, you know, he’s like, Well, it’s in the past, like how, basically, when you’re when you’re the person who’s in the Act, has been unfaithful? How do you let your partner know that you demonstrate remorse that you don’t want to do this, that you are apologetic for doing this that you’re hurt? In? That’s part of the reason you’re doing this? How do you convey that message?
Latoya Nelson
That can be difficult, because if you if this is a pattern or a history, you’ve likely said those words before, and they haven’t been upheld, you’ve kind of set it when you’ve done something out. And then you’ve set it again. So at that point, the words no longer work, the actions are what is needed. So it would be first. And there’s, there’s, there’s some kind of some, some issues with that, too. Because if this is how they if this is a pattern, then my question is, is this how they do relationships? Because I do see some clients that as a as a couple are part of an alternative lifestyle of polyamory. Yeah. You know, having that type of relationship. If this is how they’ve historically done relationships, where it’s more open, where they’re more ethically non monogamous, then that opens the door to is it something that they can’t stop? Or are they trying to fit you know, themselves into a monogamous box? So kind of that’s one kind of caveat of this of is this something that they can stop if he’s not able to? Is there a reason is there a need not being met? But in order for them at this point, if they’ve said it before, to show them the remorse it’s going to be an Action, you know, whether it is, you know, showing what his needs are that are causing him to step out, or whether it’s sitting down and having this a discussion of where does that relationship go from here. But there it sounds like there’s a need not being met, if it’s a constant issue.
Dr. Connie Omari
And basically, you’re saying it’s lip service if this has happened more than once? So do you recommend total transparency, so like giving the person access to your email address, your phone number, your phone logs, your text messages, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, all that stuff.
Latoya Nelson
So I am on the fence with that. I think it could be misused conventionally. But I also think that if you offer it, it can be coming from a good place of just showing that I’m not doing anything. But that doesn’t necessarily stop other people from messaging. So it can still I think, if you just give complete transparency, I definitely think Odyssey is always the best practice. But if they have kind of your logins, there has to be a discussion around what is it use? How what are you looking for? How do you just have it forever? Or is it just a you know, six months until trust is established? Is what does this look like?
Dr. Connie Omari
So who would make those demands? The one that cheated or the other ones? Because I’m just feel like if I was being cheated on, and I asked for it, I answered No questions. I mean, that’s.
Latoya Nelson
And if you’re asking me these questions, you clearly hide Exactly. I think it can be question from for me. After that is, what are we what are we looking for? What’s the resolution? Are you that exactly? If we don’t know the resolution? How do we know this action is getting us closer to something we don’t know? Because we’re making moves, but we’re not knowing where we’re going. So I definitely think a conversation needs to be had around that. But also an idea of what are we looking for? What’s the goal? And goals are time sensitive? They’re specific. They’re measurable. What is the goal? So because it may be after three weeks, they no longer need? It? Maybe after six months, they no longer need it? Okay, maybe that we decided as a couple that we’re just going to exchange information and we have it forever? It depends on the couple. But I think if you feel that you need to have it forever, and your partner is like, No, you’ll only get three months. And then I’m free. Trust there’s a trust issue.
Dr. Connie Omari
Okay, I see what you’re saying. That makes a lot of sense, though. That actually makes a lot of sense.
Latoya Nelson
But I know I have to deliver it idea is once the resolution, where are we going? And if we don’t know where we’re going, we can’t get in the car and go anywhere.
Dr. Connie Omari
That’s absolutely right. That was heavy. But if it makes a lot of sense, it makes a lot of sense. Okay. Is there anything any tangible resource that you would recommend our listeners to read or listen to? That can help black families contemplating divorce? Well, other than your amazing books, of course.
Latoya Nelson
Yeah, so definitely the books but also just connecting with a local therapist is going to always be a resource, okay? I know that just because they’re going to be able to tap into the latest stuff that’s going on, but then also be able to help you process your feelings. I think podcasts offer a variety of information. So your Podcast, the podcast, I’m developing, yeah, definitely helpful, what life looks like on the other side. But I think the biggest thing is just gonna be the supports or people in your life who’ve gone through it, because they’re gonna be able to let you know, you know, you may be thinking of I just need to get out, but they’re gonna give you insight on life on the other side. Because that’s important, and you have to know what it could potentially look like. Because you I find that a lot of people on the other side of divorce and they did not know what to expect, and it’s kind of a smack in the face of, I’m having to do all this now. I’m having to see this person I want love in their own relationships. You know, having my kids meet new people, and you know this this world when of him emotions that come after. So I think any black family that’s contemplating divorce, definitely look at the information you can get the processes in your state. And then also what life looks like after the other piece as well is going to be if you and your spouse are willing to do in a collaborative divorce. So looking for litigation that is deals with a collaborative divorce, especially here in North Carolina with divorce is taking a year and a day, a collaborative lawyer who specializes in collaborative divorce is going to sit down with both of you.
Dr. Connie Omari
Custody looks like I have no ideal. Okay, so how’s that how was different any other type of divorce.
Latoya Nelson
So with the collaborative divorce, each party does not have their own lawyer, they’ve agreed upon a lawyer, that collaborative divorce, sit down with them, and usually they’re sitting down with them each week, potentially monthly to go over what life looks like after. So if there is custody, if children are involved, then you’ll sit down with that person and drop what custody looks like. They’re gonna refer out to a therapist if need be, they’ve got to talk to a financial person. So you can figure out if there’s alimony, what does that look like? So the idea is that the couple is gonna save money, because they’re not paying two lawyers to argue. Because they’re not, you know, necessarily divorces are taking two and three years of dieting property and doing this and third, but they’re going to transition that relationship for what used to be a, you know, romantic relationship to co parenting.
Dr. Connie Omari
You know, people working from the same goal, and process allows that to happen. Wow, I have heard that term a million times and never knew what it meant. And with that explanation that makes so much sense, I still keep I still, just as you describe it, I could just see them in the attorney’s office, they’re bickering back and forth. I guess that’s where you come in, right?
Latoya Nelson
Want to talk, but that that’s where it does allow for that therapist to come in and say, again, what are we working? What number go to get to the point where this person I’m processing the end of this relationship? But I can’t I can’t lose sight that I still have to interact with this person for the rest of my children’s life. And for the rest of my life? Can we put ourselves on a good foot to do that so that pickups and drop offs? aren’t, you know, crazy?
Dr. Connie Omari
Yes, absolutely not be fun with this person.
Latoya Nelson
So in granted, not every couple of can do that, depending on the context of how the relationship ended, there may be a process before they get to the being able to even sit in the same room together. And that is an option. A collaborative divorce generally saves you money, because again, your two words litigate, is stress. And potentially you both parties can get what they want.
Dr. Connie Omari
Your feelings. Yeah. And it sounds like it’s the start to what you’re trying to do, which is learning how to live separately, but still, you know, cordially, especially in the presence of children.
Latoya Nelson
Yeah, because I see so many individual clients who are getting married but can’t have both parents there and they’re forced. Or you’re graduation and this my parents are still bickering so you know, Dad’s gonna give mom an invite. It’s not something that just we divorced that three and the kids are fine by service can carry on because we’re human. And we have things that hurt people hurt people.
Dr. Connie Omari
Yeah. Can you do? Is there any particular myth that you think the black community holds about divorce that you’d like to shut down real quickly? Oh, yeah.
Latoya Nelson
But the myth that we have to stay? You don’t I think, you know, I remember my grandmother, you know, discussing how sometimes this a person would have a family down the street. And they’d be living at home and then have another family down the street and everybody knows. That’s time was very common in our culture was, you know, Jimmy had this one. And Jimmy has. Yeah. And he is that you don’t have to stay in that situation. I think. days, we had less resources, less freedom and less flexibility. Now, you can create your own situation and you can decide what you want your happiness to look like. And there is happiness after divorce. You’re living proof of that, am I going through it myself? What really got me into this to helping and supporting? I did not have that and idea that I knew something needed to change. And I did not know what it looked like on the other side, but I was jumping anyway. There you go shoot on the way down. It’s definitely become something to where I support folks through that, because I know what it’s like to go through that myself and still have to keep children alive. Old running, but I just not know what you’re feeling because you’ve numbed yourself? Absolutely. It’s possible.
Dr. Connie Omari
How can black families back to you said we all know someone who’s going through this? How can we be a support for someone within our community going through a divorce.
Latoya Nelson
So I think the biggest thing there is to first be a listening year. Because we may not come out and say I’m feeling like this because of A, B and C. But we may say I’m tired, or I’m fatigued, and I’m exhausted. And oftentimes, that’s more than just the physical that’s emotionally I’m drained. Because I’ve been thinking about this so long, I’ve been hiding this, I’ve been putting on that, you know, smiling face for the public. But allowing someone to just sit there and that can be the biggest thing that they need. And then making sure that they’re kind of the basics are taken care of have they eaten today? You know, are they getting enough sleep because those are all signs or symptoms of anxiety and depression and issues. But if they can’t take care of themselves first, it’s going to be harder for them to even process what’s going on or gameplay. So I think just being that support, oftentimes we don’t want to be nosy or be involved or the good old cultural thing of what up our house these days.
Dr. Connie Omari
Well, how do we provide safety though? Because what you just said listening? Just yeah, how Yeah, in I guess withholding the judgment. Because the thing is, is natural when you’re going through distress to want to attach to another person. I know that from like my trauma work, but what happens is if you don’t feel safe enough, like if you don’t feel like it, like you said, if I feel like I’m gonna, you’re gonna be you’re gonna tell me, I told you. So. You know that I’m not gonna want to tell you.
Latoya Nelson
Yeah. And granted, the person who’s done a say, I told you, so if they’re already prepping for that they’re not gonna be the ones who are concerned about, oh, how are they doing? Are they okay? They’re asking just to, you know, say why Cody. So girl, I knew that was a current work, he was sorry. So that may not be the person who’s like, How can I help? The person who’s wondering how can I help is the one that has genuine concern. So you know that that question of asking someone, how can I help? Do you need to talk, it may not happen the first time, right? It may not happen the second time you ask, but it’s being persistent to where you’re feeling, I fully feel that we are led to do things. So obeying that spiritual inspiration of you should ask her how she’s doing, you should sit with her and just watch that program in silence. We’d have feelings and following those can open that door to where that person does feel safe, as feel comfortable to even open up just a little bit and see how you’re on there.
Dr. Connie Omari
I have one last question for you. And then I want to go to a different section towards the end are there there’s no doubt that we’ve got an ugly history and our community and in many ways, those behaviors, those choices, you know, not having choices, not being human not being able to legally marry and having our marriages disrupted and disrespected due to the institution of slavery. Are there any particular behaviors you think, could influence divorce in the black community? Today?
Latoya Nelson
I definitely think that just our history and the trauma that we have surrounding that I know, even though we this generation, wasn’t the ones that were in chains, or was it the ones that were out, fighting for our equality or getting fire hoses on us. Still the remembrance of that can cause a level of trauma and and from there, I think sometimes the confinement of marriage can feel like we’re fighting battles outside and in our home. And sometimes the idea is that I just want to be free, I just want to get away,
Dr. Connie Omari
oh my god.
Latoya Nelson
I have these expectations out there. And then I come home and I have these expectations. And I’m out here fighting this, and then I come home and we’re fighting here, I just want to get in the car, I just want to leave.
Dr. Connie Omari
Wow. And at that point, you couldn’t. But today we can.
Latoya Nelson
But today we can, and as I can. So it feels like it’s an easy way out. And the thing is, is that if we’re gonna fight, we need to fight for what we want. And understanding the realization that we don’t want this relationship to end most of the time. But we do want the freedoms, right, we do want changes. So what does that realistically look like? Does it look like before? Or does it look like connecting with my partner and letting them know what I need? Wow. So I think that that is something that plays big in the fact that we are fighting battles on multiple ends that some of our the other races don’t have to deal with the way that we do.
Dr. Connie Omari
Very good. Very good. All right. Now it’s time for a part of the show called what’s good. What’s good, is a place where we give a hypothetical situation that one of our listeners could be going through and ask for your advice. Are you ready? Yes, let’s go. All right, knee pam, pam is married with three children under the age of 10. She’s done things according to what she thought was expected of her. She went to high school and married her high school sweetheart, while in college, she then had her three children and support her husband as a stay at home mom. Recently, she is finding that she has been unfulfilled. She is not interested in playing with her children is tired from taking care of them. It feels like she’s getting little support from her husband. She’s been feeling emotionally detached. She’s contemplating divorce, but feels if she follows through with it, the life would be over. Do you have any advice for PAM?
Latoya Nelson
Definitely. So I actually have a couple of clients that would fit that. So I think that scenario is common. We feel like we’ve done everything right, but haven’t factored in our own happiness. Which, you know, hopefully, our society will get to a point where our happiness comes first, prior to doing things the right way. But in that scenario, I would first of course, encourage her to sit down with someone to talk about what she is feeling. But then also do an exercise where she determines where is she finding joy in her day? And not even just in her life yet? We’re just going to start specifically with the 24 hours you have, where do you find joy, if you find that you’re giving, giving, giving, and not refilling your path, finding joy in any other places, doing things that just make you smile internally, then we’re gonna feel unfulfilled and likely overwhelmed.
Dr. Connie Omari
Because through kids requires, oh my.
Latoya Nelson
God requires work requires things if you have student loans that requires thought. So have you taken that time out for yourself and hopefully off the top Absol. So, for clients like this, I definitely recommend that they have a quiet space for themselves, whether that’s at 530 in the morning, before anybody else is up, or if that’s at the end of the day, or anywhere in between, to be able to get connected with themselves with stores with what they need get grounded so that they’re not feeling like they’re just spending all their energy and not getting anything back. So that would be my initial advice. I mean, I think often one of the biggest things to do can be to just take a blank piece of paper and kind of create a circle and divvy out your happiness and a pie and see where you’re fulfilled and where you’re not seeing your kids smile make you happy do seeing yourself smile make you happy. And how are we actively doing them? Good. See what’s missing.
Dr. Connie Omari
Usually when we’re unfulfilled things are missing there are holes to fill those guys well this has been awesome. I mean I can I can truly feel your passion for this work. You clearly are a wealth of knowledge and support. I felt supported for me and I’m not even going through this. I know it’s really gonna resonate with with our listeners. And speaking of how can they find you if they want it to follow up?
Latoya Nelson
Sure, so they can check out my website. It’s divorced in raleigh.com. Yes. Yep, divorce in raleigh.com. From there, you can find out a lot more about me what I offer. If you’re local or want to schedule for in session or virtual sessions, you can through that website. And also there’s links to my podcasts and to books and my store as well.
Dr. Connie Omari
So divorce in Raleigh gives you everything you need. Love it, love it, love it. And just to be clear you in North Carolina, and you provide virtual, so that means you can service all the entire state. Yes, we know her state of North Carolina. Love it, love it. Well, Latoya, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for the work that you’re doing in the community to help people go through divorces. Thank you for the resources that you have provided through your books and through just the virtual world in general. And you just you just a breath of fresh air. And thank you for sharing that with us today.
Latoya Nelson
Thank you so much.
Dr. Connie Omari
You have a wonderful day and take care.
Latoya Nelson
Thank you, you as well.
Dr. Connie Omari
Okay. Bye bye.
Dr. Connie Omari
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Black Marriage and Family Therapy matters podcast, where we connect black families to black therapists. Since you’ve listened all the way through, come on in and join the family. If you haven’t done so yet, please join our free community where we offer weekly trainings and monthly giveaways. We can be found on Facebook, under the black marriage and families matter Facebook group. And since you’re serious about joining our family, we also invite you to join our all ad campaign, which signifies your commitment to go all in not only for yourself, but in helping us reach more people by downloading this podcast wherever you are listening to it, leaving us a review and subscribing to our YouTube channel. This really helps us reach more people and change more lives. After all, Dr. Martin Luther King once said, we can all get more done together than we can apart. With that said, I want to encourage you to share this episode with just three other people who you think might also benefit from our community, and what we are offering with the hopes that all of you can join are all in campaign. When you’re done, simply click the link all in campaign in the bio and receive a free copy of my course entitled goodbye toxicity which is valued at $297. This course will help you to work through some of the difficult experiences that arise in most of our relationships. And it’s completely free to you with your commitment to join our all in campaign. We look forward to connecting with you every Monday and Wednesday. Thanks for listening!