Dr. Connie Omari
Hey, hey, hey and welcome to the black Marriage and Family Therapy matters podcast where we connect black families to black therapists. Today’s guest is Dr. Erica Dawkins. Hi, Dr. Dawkins.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Hi, how are you talk to Mr. Green.
Dr. Connie Omari
I’m good. How are you? Good. I’m
Dr. Erika Dawkins
glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
Dr. Connie Omari
Oh, we are so happy to have you. Do you mind if I tell you the audience a little bit about who you are? No, go
Dr. Erika Dawkins
right ahead.
Dr. Connie Omari
Awesome. Dr. Dawkins, who is a cell has a sidey is currently the Clinical Director of Chester Community Coalition and the school psychologist for Weidner partnership Charter School, a K through eight charter school in Chester, Pennsylvania. In 2014. She completed her Doctorate of psychology and clinical psychology and Masters of Education and Human Sexuality at widen our university as part of one of their dual degree programs. Also, while at widen our Dr. Dawkins completed the necessary training in School Psychology, and is a certified school psychologist in the state of Pennsylvania. She received her Bachelors of Science in Psychology from Howard University in 2008. Graduating magna Coombe, Lada Dr. Dawkins is clinical research interests include minority identity development, micro aggressions, intersectionality, grief, trauma, couples therapy, human sexuality, and more recently, the impact that social media has on self image and the development and maintenance of interpersonal relationships and supporting young minorities around having positive healthy relationships. Dr. Dawkins has had the opportunity to speak with many various challenges they face and how to navigate them. She has a passion for working with brown women and families who are seeking to develop and maintain strong, healthy intrapersonal and interpersonal relationships, often using her own life story to motivate and encourage those she encounters. Her belief is that transparency and communication are the keys to making the connections we desire. And 2019 Dr. Dawkins opened her boutique therapy consulting and coaching firm by the name of revolutionary perspectives. Her philosophy and objectives as the founder of revolutionary perspectives is to encourage radical change and inspire far reaching impact. For self care. Doctor Doc is enjoys decorative planning, or journaling, attending live music events, lifting weights and traveling. Dr. Dawkins credits her success thus far to her faith in God, her family and friends who push her and challenge her at every turn, and her fearless run full speed ahead attitude, knowing that even if she trips, she can always get back up and get back at it. Awesome. Yes. Dr. Dawkins, if you trip, you can get back up, always running already? Wow. Wow. Um, well, in a moment of transparency, and we’re going to be talking about self esteem. So it’s going to be more, it’s gonna be really relevant. But can you kind of? Well, before we get into that, tell us how did you get into this work?
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Sure. So I became interested in psychology, kind of, after seeing some of my family navigate emotional wellness concerns. I think like most folks in the field, they say, either we get in the field to heal someone that we know or heal ourselves. And so looking to kind of support members of my family was one of the primary reasons that I got into this work and really became interested in undergrad when I saw kind of the way that folks navigated relationships, things that allowed conflict to be successful or not successful things that allowed relationships to grow and flourish, or even to end and seasons to end really had me look and say kind of what are at the root or what can be sometimes at the root of having relationships be successful or unsuccessful, and started navigating that piece around communication. And that was super important, and became kind of the focus of my work then going into grad school.
Dr. Connie Omari
Amazing, amazing, amazing. So well, just speaking of self esteem, um, well, what do you think? How do you think self esteem kind of ties into our overall quality of life?
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Yeah. Yeah. So when I think about kind of the relation Tips that we have, and that we grow and cultivate the relationship with ourselves is oftentimes neglected until we get much older. And so when we think about the level of self esteem and the the value that we place on ourselves, we oftentimes really don’t give active thought to it. It’s something that gets influenced by other relationships that we have, or interactions that we have throughout our lifetime, folks, sometimes that we have one encounter with can impact our self esteem in ways that we don’t really spend time thinking about. And so when we think about a culture or a society, those areas where we grow and cultivate relationships, it’s really important that the images and the messages that we receive, and the ones that we kind of generate internally help to feed our self esteem. And so we have to be active participants, and knowing how we feel about ourselves, and then creating the way that we desire to feel about ourselves. And so that’s a lot of the work that I do, especially with women and black women are around messages that they have received growing up, and that they continue to receive that shape how they’re able to show up in the world.
Dr. Connie Omari
I love it. I love it. Are there any particular issues with self esteem that you see happening? More amongst black women or black men? Hmm.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
So in terms of areas of self esteem, I think here in the US and I know in other cultures as well, colorism is one I was going to ask you about that. One of the biggest issues at least in the black community, right? You know, we tell and, and we’ll join together around the black is beautiful imaging and messages against I hate to say against but you know, kind of, we will we will come together around that messaging, in response to other cultures, making some attack on black skin. But then within our culture, we have a level of hierarchy, whether it’s explicitly or unspoken, we have a level of hierarchy and around which brown skin gets access to certain things or which brown skin is good, whether that comes with good hair, right, whether that comes with good features. And I think that that is one way and one area that we do ourselves a disservice around really understanding the complexity and and if we’re making others consider the complexity within our culture, we also have to respect and appreciate the complexity within our culture.
Dr. Connie Omari
Okay, that’s very, very insightful. I’m going to ask you and I, I’m sure it’s self explanatory, but can you explain a little bit more what colorism is?
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Sure. So colorism is kind of the view that different shades or hues of a particular ethnic group is socially socially more respected, or better or appreciated. And oftentimes, that looks like lighter, bare skin, folks that are closer to a Eurocentric view of beauty, are elevated and viewed as preferable versus darker skin individuals and so it’s not something that is, you know, only seen in African American cultures and African cultures it’s seen and Latinx culture. Indian Yes, exactly. So it’s, it’s an issue that, you know, kind of permeates a lot of different ethnic groups.
Dr. Connie Omari
So basically, no matter where you find yourself, the closer you are to white, the more the more in demand you are. Now let me ask you this, because I learned this, when Oprah did her series of dark skinned and that she did light skinned. I didn’t I didn’t know that light skin, you know, because I’m brown, you know, for those who haven’t seen me or you, but light skinned people, like especially women also find themselves like, on a on a different like, they also experience like discrimination and, and difficulty. Like I remember when I watched the light skinned, they said the girls she had lice good was her heart and long hair. And she said every day she’d have to run in the bathroom, because all the dark skinned girls would like beat her up or try to beat her up because she was light skinned along here. Do you see things like that as well and do work with around that?
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Yeah, I mean, I think again, so when we think about kind of the idealistic view of light skinned folks with good hair being You’re elevated, that oftentimes comes from outside of black culture, or outside of the ethnic culture, then within the culture, because of kind of the outside culture elevating that aesthetic, within the culture, folks are trying to kind of reclaim that black is beautiful. And in doing that, rather than saying, you know, we all are beautiful, beautiful, right?
Dr. Connie Omari
They do that in a
Dr. Erika Dawkins
correct it is, you know, because white culture is elevating you, we want to elevate the brown and dark dark, folks. And really, what’s interesting is I think that there is there are probably other ends of the spectrum. I haven’t haven’t seen the, the Oprah special that you’re talking about. But one of the folks that I enjoy watching on YouTube, a beauty guru, her name is Naimah, Tang, she is incredibly gorgeous. And she at the other end of the spectrum, oftentimes has trouble finding beauty products that allow for her to contour her dark skin, the other end of the spectrum, there is not shades that really appreciate how dark our black skin can go through this. Right, right. And so there is kind of this middle ism. And like you said, we’re kind of brown skin. So we’re at the middle of this kind of colorism spectrum, where lighter is elevated by Eurocentric and white culture. And the at the other end of the spectrum, folks, do they want to avoid getting too dark, or they want to avoid being seen as too dark, and that the middle is kind of what’s elevated? When again, oh, so we’re in a crowd. For now, but I tell you, summer is coming and lays out, I try to get dark as fast ends of the spectrum.
Dr. Connie Omari
Just as you say this, and I’m just thinking, and I kind of want you know, maybe some of your feedback in this. But I know you talked about relationships and stuff too. And I’m thinking about a good friend from college, bless her heart, she was light skinned with long hair, and she was pretty, I really didn’t think she was attractive. That’s my personal opinion. But I noticed in terms of dating, she had a really hard time. And I could tell Well, it was my and again, you know, you know, know what goes through people’s personal business. But I thought that, that guys were being drawn to her because of what you’re saying, because of that beauty fell into the light skin long hair category, because she was a really good friend. Like she was a really good person. And she, she, you know, I liked her. And so I would get angry that she would find herself in these relationships with men who saw her external beauty and never saw her and then she and then I hate to say it, but the next time a lighter one, you know, a longer hair came by, they will leave her you know? And, um, I don’t know, do you see kind of like, those patterns? Or is that like a unique thing that I kind of ran
Dr. Erika Dawkins
into? My future is not unique. She’s not the only person. The couples that I actually work with and have right now are black, let couples often times will or, you know, kind of close in shade. But you know, I think one of the things that there are a number of theories about why we have certain attraction or you know, kind of gravitate towards this ideal, especially the with you mentioning that this person actively was seeking the lighter in the longer right, every time someone lighter with longer hair came along that was more desired. And while that very well may have just been their preference, the idea that you could improve your relationship with someone who aesthetically was more. Yeah. Something that we deal with. Definitely in other culture, it’s something that we’ve seen, you know, with folks saying, you know, even Kanye West, you know, you support him, you know, and as soon as he get on, right. You know, I
Dr. Erika Dawkins
think about but you know, I think one of the things that right now, especially with the Black Lives Matter movement, I think there’s the shift to understanding that going along with a Eurocentric idea and view of what is going to be sustainable and appropriate for our communities and families is not where it’s at. And so I think that there is the show Have to even around kind of preference and desire to find that within kind of the black community, even if that is someone who is fair skin. But finding that within so how can
Dr. Connie Omari
we? How can we have this conversation? Because yeah, we can get on a podcast. And we can educate people that we can talk about our experiences, and we can talk about your research. But how do you have? I mean, I don’t think I even the friend that I’m talking about, like, we’re a band, we haven’t talked to you for years, because, you know, our, our paths have kind of gone in different directions, but there’s no ill blood, like we actually traveled and left the country together, you know, but we never talked about a B, how do you have these conversations? Um, I think I’m even more comfortable talking with white people about race, especially if I feel like they’re an ally, to the black community than I am talking about color with other black people. I mean, is that is that a useful skill? Is that something that we should be doing more of
Dr. Erika Dawkins
MMA? I mean, I think it is tricky. Because there are layers, there are layers to what we’ve developed and internalized about how we view and see ourselves, right? There are messages and images that we may have grown up with, whether that is you’re so pretty, you have great hair, or you’re so dark, you don’t want to sit out in the sun, where, you know, you want to make sure that you find a partner that looks like this, or has this. And so there are so many views about kind of how we should view ourselves. And then there are stacked by when we get out in the world. And we see images on social media and in magazines, and in ADS. And for most of us growing up until recently, there wasn’t representation, we didn’t see black families on TV, when we saw families sitting together having meals or you know, we saw people really appreciating the way that they looked in advertisement, they were white, or light, or they were you know, kind of again, that Eurocentric aesthetic. And the idea then was only white families sit down at dinner and have healthy marriages that last or who loved themselves and pamper themselves. And so it is layered, we have to have these conversations not only on that personal level, but we have to have them systemically we have to have them you know, kind of in campaigns, we have to have them in corporations, we have to have them in media and in television. So it’s not a one lane conversation. But I think it’s worth discussing with friends and family because it’s individualized. We can’t just say that folks preference is a reflection of kind of a lack of understanding of themselves or a self image self esteem or self value issue.
Dr. Connie Omari
Love it. Love it. Love it. This is great work. Great work. Well, I kinda I don’t know if I really want to. I mean, I love the idea of self esteem. But I think we are on a roll with this colorism. So we’re gonna make sure we we visit to the ongoing conversations. What is something that we wish black families knew about how colorism affects our self esteem?
Dr. Erika Dawkins
I think that one of the things is just a level of awareness. And so sometimes we consume information without really stopping to think about that experience. Yeah, yeah. So I actually was in a clubhouse room earlier this week, where we talked someone was actually talking about feelings and being in their feelings. And someone said, you know, I want to be in my feelings. You know, I want to I want that experience. And my offer to the conversation was, it’s one thing to experience those feelings to be able to acknowledge what is happening to be able to be aware of what you are thinking and feeling based on what you’re being confronted with. But it’s another to live there. And so I would offer the same thing around colorism, right. So it’s one thing for us to take in these images. It’s one thing for us to be exposed to advertisement and to talk about what we are being confronted with around like skin lightening products or you know, what we are being confronted with, around not seeing representation in terms of shades in makeup or neutral clothes that is supposed to be matching your skin tone. But it is something completely different to then say, what impact does that have on you? What do you think about kind of the availability of those things and the right or the fact that everyone should be represented it Is there something that you can do about that? Is there something that you can do about the way that impacts you, as well as something that you can do about the representation at a deeper level level? So not just feeling those feelings, not just having that experience, but then saying, How can I take what I’m experiencing? And have an impact? How, how has it impacted me before and have a better understanding of how I view myself? And then say, What can I do? What is my role in our community and addressing what I’m seeing?
Dr. Connie Omari
salutely? That makes sense. Mm. How do we have, at the beginning, when I initially asked the question, you said it was about just the what goes on in like, like, if I might, I was hearing, I was summarizing what you were saying, like the way we were internalizing how natural you know, some of this stuff is like we don’t It’s and we’re not conscious that we’re doing it, it’s, it’s when you said good hair, I knew exactly what you meant. And I don’t think anybody has ever sat down and explained to me what that meant. But we just know, right? It’s like the subconscious thing. So how, how do we make that more conscious? And then how do we earn more learn those things, because, you know, my daughter is six. And I regret that I was not the first person to really educate her about this, like, I mean, and I think I do a decent job of trying to help her to be aware of her blackness, but my gosh, they got you know, this, she went to a school. How old was she? I think when she turned three, and I had just cut off all her hair, because, you know, it wasn’t growing. It wasn’t even so I just, you know, she’s three, I’ll be alone. And honestly, she was aware that her hair and her texture, and then her skin complexion was different. And it was at three, I was still shocked, but maybe she was four but no, I think she was three. Or four. I mean, that’s early.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
It is. And but what I think you highlighted is at that age, what kids notice is difference. They don’t have any there’s no labeling, we then as adults attach good and bad to that all of all children are recognizing is that it’s different. And so we have a role and responsibility in terms of ascribing kind of the quality to what students and children are noticing at that age. So for that difference to be celebrated. That’s what she will remember,
Dr. Connie Omari
right? Well, we would do it at home. And then she would go to school because I’m wondering if even if children notice that was that it was different, but then the children are responding to things that you hear their parents saying. So So we have now has a has a good or bad connotation to it.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Exactly. And so we all have a response to that. So of course, I’m sure you all are celebrating the difference. But then even at school, right? We have this the the instructor or the classroom manager, right? Who is overhearing the conversation about different people to facilitate a conversation about that difference isn’t bad. We all are different. Every single one of us even a set of twins is going to be different and unique in some ways. And that level of uniqueness has to be celebrated. And how do we do that? How do we acknowledge the ways that we are similar, and the ways that we are different and we celebrate everyone, there’s room for that. But that has to be a part of kind of all of our language and practice. Because, again, like we talked about it, it’s not just a personal issue, right? It’s an issue that even when your daughter leaves daycare, we’ll address that school, and then we’ll address when she goes into college and then the workforce, right. It’s something that we aren’t going to come up because it’s a systemic issue and problem.
Dr. Connie Omari
See, I see. Um, how does colorism harm us? Like we’ve talked about how that it exists? I think we’ve talked about, you know, what it looks like, but what maybe to be more specific, what are the long term like what what if we don’t get this in check.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
So I think it has both personal and kind Have group implications. So some of the personal implications can be the unacknowledged on addressed internalized references that we have around our color, our the way that we show up that we then pass on or pass down to other folks, even if we don’t have biological children, and even if we, you know, come into contact with other people’s children and families, it can really impact the way that we navigate issues are around kind of shades of folks within our community. So I think about a family example, all the time, I have a cousin and older cousin, who really always talked about being out in the sun and getting darker. And it was one of those things that was drilled into us, you don’t want to get don’t
Dr. Connie Omari
want to do that, you do
Dr. Erika Dawkins
get dark, and that’s like, why I’m here as an adult, you know, and I think about I have, you know, there’s her daughter who really embraced that and was like, oh, no, I don’t want to get any darker and, and really had a hard time accepting the fact that she was naturally darker. And so that caused her to do other things, trying to lighten her skin, and impacted the way that she may wear her hair like trying to present in a way that would have her be more accepted, since her skin may not be accepted was the messaging that she received. Were I on the other ticket and ran with and it’s like every summer, I want to get as dark as possible. And embrace that. But it could really have long term effects on the way that we see ourselves as worthy. If we get messages and images around our difference, one being poor versus the other kind of being more applauded. And then we start to attach that to our self worth, and how much value we have as a person. And which is not true. If I were light skinned and speaking the same way, you could get just as much out of what I have to say and contribute as if I were much darker. But the reality is, and I actually had someone telling me, you know, the reality is as a fat, black, darker skinned woman, if there was someone who was smaller and lighter skin, and we said the exact same thing, the likelihood that they would, you know, be received and seen as less threatening, is greater. And so that can really impact our self esteem, it can impact obviously, the progress and progression that we’re able to make. So personally, I may not elevate and make as many strides as someone who has lighter skin with maybe less education and less to say, just by the nature of looking at us. Right. So that’s on a personal level. And then as a people, you know, we then would have to continue to fight not only amongst ourselves, but also among the greater society. Right. And by being divided, it really doesn’t allow us to address the larger issues
Dr. Connie Omari
issues. Correct. Correct. Thank you, Dr. Dawkins. I want to ask a question about our hair too, because one of the most amazing things about our culture is the ability to be flexible and creative with our hair. So now I love different hair styles. I wear my hair natural, but I’m not a hater. I love people who wear you know, the lace front wigs. I love all of it. So how do you have any suggestions? Because, you know, if I were to choose to do that, I think I have a strong enough sense of self that, you know, I would know that that because like for instance, I went to Jamaica and I bought a wig just because I didn’t really want to deal with. Um, but it was like, what I’m trying to say is, how can you do that, and not feed into the narrative, because some people are then attached to it. And they don’t know how to take it off. And that’s one thing when they’re that way, but this could be my own stuff. You can check me on it. I’m open to it. But you know, when you have a child who’s looking up to you, and is getting their image of beauty from the way they that mommy works, you know, if Mommy has long blonde hair down to her butt like all the time, and your child doesn’t. I don’t think I would believe I was beautiful. If my hair wasn’t like that, but my mom’s always was, I don’t know if you can like kind of speak to that. How can we do it in a way that we can accent our beauty and you know, be flexible and creative without sending the message that the way our hair is naturally He comes out of our scout is not beautiful?
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Yeah. So I think it’s all about conversations and probably folks who have worked with me, it’s like you’re always talking about talking, but is really the best way for us to be able to share information with our kids. I was having a conversation last week with someone and said, you know, a lot of even the things, the messages and things that we’ve learned growing up, no one and I think even you said earlier, no one explicitly said these things. Yeah. Right. Have conversations about them. But when we were seeing them, we were curious. And so I would encourage families to inspire curiosity in your young kids and have these conversations around them. So the way I would talk with my kids, even I dye my hair, right. So my kids would see that my black roots are coming in right now. Because it’s time for that they may see me come from the salon and say, like, Well, mom, like your hair is blonde. You know, does it grow like that? No, it doesn’t. But one thing that Mommy likes to do is Mommy likes to dye the front part of her hair blonde sometimes and have a couple of different colors. And then sometimes in the winter, I like it to be red. And then sometimes I like it to be black. But look at this person who does none of that. And she’s still beautiful. Oh, you, you know, when you get to the age where you can pick and choose. Doll your hair, you can also make some decisions like that too, right? So I think even if for someone who does want to wear a wig all the time I champion that I don’t know how to do it. I don’t know how to do that.
Dr. Connie Omari
So a lot of work.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Right? Some point it does come off, right? You take the wig off, you wash your hair, you replac allowing your child to be a part of that process. Yeah, and see that their questions and say, you know, this is what Mommy does. Mommy loves having this. But this is what’s under mommy’s hair is her other hair. That’s also beautiful. And you want to touch this hair. Do you want mommy, it looks just like yours, right? And mommy does that just like you do, and then likes to wear this wig, right? So involving them in the conversation so that they know why you’re making those choices. And the fact that their choices that you have made, and that they can make different ones when they get to be that age, I think is super important.
Dr. Connie Omari
I love that. I love that. I just want to reiterate, I don’t want no messages I say and you can’t wear your wigs. You can’t get your hair done. Don’t get it twisted because because I do I think it’s beautiful. So, but as Dr. Dawkins was saying, if you do have children, make sure that you’re communicating that their natural beauty is is beautiful as well. Um, are there any resources that you know of that can help black families discuss colorism? Cut flat colorism? Any of the above?
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Sure. So I know we switched kind of our direction but there is actually someone that I went to school with. I’m going to pull her up while we’re talking right now. Dr. Sarah, who is really a big kind of advocate. She speaks a lot around colorism. Her Instagram is colorism healing Dr. Sarah L. Webb is someone who talks a lot about colorism and the fact that it is a social system around kind of marginalization and areas of privilege. And so I think that kind of her work. Her scholarly work around colorism is one that I would like to highlight as a dark skinned black woman, kind of in the field doing this work. I think also just around kind of difference. And really talking to kids about difference and having healthy conversations. There is a sex sex health educator that I actually follow who I think does a really good job about how to have conversations with kids in a way that really allows them to fully explore kind of who they are and their it’s not just sexual related, but just around educating kids like how to have appropriate levels of conversation with kids. And that is I’m Dr. Alexa James. And her Instagram handle is Lex SEC stock but again, she talks a lot of
Dr. Connie Omari
Facebook friends. I recognize Yeah, or maybe Instagram friends who Yeah, I know what you’re talking about. Okay. I will make sure to leave both of those along with your information in the show notes when we’re done. For sure. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, that’s great. That’s great. And I like those Instagrams though, because you know, what doesn’t take like a lot of time to just go and just get some information and learn a little bit as you go. So that’s great. Um, is there a myth along colorism that you’d like to debunk? I think that all
Dr. Erika Dawkins
folks ascribe to and, you know, kind of pick aside a big
Dr. Connie Omari
Yeah. Wait, do you think the myth is that we all do it? Or that we all don’t do it? That we all do it?
Dr. Erika Dawkins
We don’t all do it. We don’t all do it. Right. So I don’t think so. So like I can say, and maybe because I’m speaking for for myself, I think I think those those kind of all or none rules there, the answer is always going to be false. That that all or none kind of happened, right? Because black people don’t exist in a monolith, right. But I think that I have come up against fair skinned women who can say like, me, being fair skinned is not something I can change. If, you know, if one way that I could express my membership in this black community was the opportunity to be darker, I do it. I do it in a heartbeat. Because that seems to be what people feel like they need. While I appreciate and I love myself, I don’t like the fact that we have these groupings within us that create a kind of disconnect. You know, and I’m someone you know, I am a chocolate, I’m in the middle. But I’d love to be duck if I could not say that more, if you did not walk away. Our time together knowing that you know to be rich, Lee dark is something that I have always appreciated, like pre appreciated.
Dr. Connie Omari
Do you Okay, so is it. That, so you are saying that you haven’t slightly appreciated the bit of the privilege, unearned privilege nonetheless, but I’m not being like, chocolate, dark, dark. Like you don’t think you’ve ever? Like, again, I could be you know, I’m doing I’m going through my work because because I just I mean, hopeless. Okay, you’re you’re you’re an expert here. But I do think that we all hold some biases. And I think that we get in trouble when we don’t acknowledge it. Because then that’s what we can perpetuate. You know, and I say this, because let me speak for myself. I saw it in the end yesterday, in the gas station. And he was darker. He got to see me but Dr. Dawkins, can I have a blacktop him his skin, it was just but it was so smooth. And it was just so clear. And that he had what we would call good hair. And I couldn’t help but look at that combination. And think to myself, that’s a very attractive band. And then I had to check myself, because it was like, why am I saying that? You know, like, Am I really drawn to his the way that his he looks? Or does he have features that are in such a way that I’ve been conditioned to think are favorable as opposed to have you had that same exact same flexion but with last year, and I remember just making that cautious decision while I was in the store. So I don’t know if you want to, like speak to that or ever because I know for myself, I grew up look, I grew up in the South, North Carolina, okay, light skinned, long hair had benefits. And I had and I put so for the longest time. It I had to I struggled. I struggled big time because of it. And it wasn’t until I made a conscious effort to check whether the medicine mean like unlearned? Well, I guess I have because I’ve become more educated and more aware, but that doesn’t mean that the same biases that I grew up thinking about I struggle, you know what I mean? I I have to I have to be cautious around go right back to it.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
So I think there’s a definite difference between acknowledging that there are certain privileges coming with being lighter or you know, kind of being a part of, you know, kind of particular shade group, but not holding on to them right and not saying like, Oh, gosh, you know, think fingers crossed that I don’t have a kid that comes out as dark as my shirt. Right? That’s a very different attitude, and a very different positioning to hold. And so
Dr. Connie Omari
yes, it’s not a bad position to hold that what you just said,
Dr. Erika Dawkins
I think that it’s one that we should look at, right?
Dr. Connie Omari
I’m not gonna lie both of my kids I was like, just because but for for the same reasons that you’re saying, it’s because I know that there’s going to be a little bit of an advantage. I’m not saying it’s right, I don’t like it. I, you know, don’t I’m not happy about it. But this show is about being honest and being authentic. And I don’t think I’ll ever either way I was gonna love them, you know, but in my defense, my husband and my husband is this color, because he’s from Africa. So he is very, very dark skin. So there was a part of me that was just a little bit concerned about if they inherited his skin complexion, what that would mean for them growing up, and there was a piece of a relief. In Me, the owner of the black Marriage and Family Therapy matters podcast, the one who is all about blackness, whatever, there was a little bit of relief for me and realizing, okay, that’s a problem, that my children will have some degree because, you know, I’m not like, but they’re not like, but they’re not as dark as my husband.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
And so, again, examining kind of, like, where that comes from, and the fact that like you said, it’s not that it’s it is, it’s, it’s the reality of the culture that we are growing up in, and the society, you know, kind of societal view that is placed on very dark, very fair skinned folks. But then now what, what responsibility do we have to communicate to our children about what it should mean? Right, right. And so that’s why I say I don’t I think that that’s a myth that all folks lived there, and are resident there, you can acknowledge that level of privilege that is held for being further along on the spectrum than others. But as someone who has genuinely I also grew up in the South, I grew up in Louisiana, where you had it.
Dr. Connie Omari
All right. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
And then folks would always comment, my family, my parents aren’t from Louisiana, but folks would comment about the grade and texture of my hair, my mother’s hair and my father’s hair, despite the fact that we were brown skin, and it was kind of like, Oh, that’s so strange, because that’s not the messaging or the imaging that I heard in my home. And so I find that that really contributed to an appreciation of the shades that black came in. And to say that, just because, you know, so one person can maybe have the experience that you had seeing the gentleman at the gas station and kind of say, like, Oh, what an appreciation for the clearness of the skin and just kind of like the shade. And saying, like, all of that is beautiful. And as equally as beautiful as mine. And not have to kind of say like, alright, les brown skinned girls, we got to stick together like, hey, right, right, common for us. Because I think I think the danger that we get into is what is experienced in other cultures thinking about brown skin, people infiltrating and kind of developing a melting pot, right? If we think about, you know, keeping fair skinned folks fair skinned, and we keep thinking about keeping brown skinned folks brown skin and keeping our darker chocolate folks chocolate, we don’t allow for the fact that there is that level of variation. And we then look like we’re avoiding, like mixing our colors. And that that can be that can have long term effects.
Dr. Connie Omari
Can it can thank you for that. Just a quick story. Just you made me think of it with that. But back to when I was watching the light skinned versus dark skin directory, I met on an Oprah documentary. It’s funny because my husband, he likes to be real, like tough and macho. But sometimes I’ll be watching these like chick flicks or things like that. It helped me like kind of pivoted and try to try to keep it out. And I remember he sat down really, it was really into this. And then he starts he goes, Connie, now we have been married at this point, maybe a couple of years. He goes, Are you light skin or dark skin? Just remember, it really just resonated with me because, you know, in his culture that that did not have any major. You know, first of all, everybody, I mean, there are some lighter people, but for the most part, most of the people around us his same complexion, and he just didn’t have any major context. And so it meant nothing to him and I’m like here examine everything. So Well, I’m glad we had this conversation. Yes, we did kind of get our conversation did try to change the chair. But I think this is a much needed topic. And you definitely have given us a lot to think about. What we’re going to do now is transition to a part of the show called what’s good, and what’s good. It’s just a place where I give a hypothetical situation. And then I asked for your clinical expertise. Is that okay, Doctor, doctor? Okay, what’s good? Meet Tasha. Tasha is a 16 year old, African and African American first generation high school student, her mother, she lives with her mother, who is married to a German white male, and they have a son, who is biracial. Tasha, she struggles with her self image of being dark skin. coarser hair, we would probably call it nappy. And fuller figured when her mother is smaller and petite, and has fair complexion. Of course, her stepdad is white, and her younger brother is of mixed heritage program, how would you advise Tasha, to feel confident, even though she’s on the negative end of this color spectrum, and her family?
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Yeah. So I would encourage Tasha, to think a little bit about the aspects of herself that she does like and appreciate. And so I would always encourage someone to kind of start with themselves and think a little bit about and it doesn’t necessarily have to be related to physical features actually, probably would prefer that it isn’t. But think about the aspects of themselves that they like things that they really do well. And sometimes people have a hard time coming up with that. And so I said, Well, if I were to ask your mom, if I were to ask your dad, what are things that are good about you? If I would ask your best friend, what would they say is a special trait or quality that you have? And I want you to list those out for me. And then taking a look at those and thinking about what is really important. And what do you want to amplify what do you want to be known for? Do you want to be known for being aesthetically in this way? Or do you want to be known for some of the things that you’ve listed? And it doesn’t really matter what the choice is, I’m just offering an opportunity, what is it that you’d like to be known for. And then I think that it’s really important for Tasha, to then share some of her experience and views with her mom, because her mom may have absolutely no idea that that is her reality, especially if her mom has lived in this very fair skin world and is raising a multiracial child, her mom may have absolutely no experience of Tasha as experience when it comes to the images and messages that she’s getting me just ignorant. So it’s important for her to share that with mom. And then I think it’s important for mom to recognize that she may not then be able to give Tasha what she needs in terms of observation of representation, Tasha needs to see women who have accepted their standard of beauty and are using it in the way that they see fit, and are showing up and showing out in the world the way that they desire to. And so connecting Tasha in ways that she’s able to do that is going to be super important. So that looks like women, finding women online finding a community of women within their community, that can really challenge her to accept aspects of herself that are unique and different and should be celebrated.
Dr. Connie Omari
Good, very good. I just want to piggyback off of that really quickly, just fine to make this a little bit more how talk discussing privilege is difficult. And I think it’s a little bit easier, unfortunately, for those without the privilege, because at least generates a level of empathy. So my white friends that I can talk to about race, you know, I enjoy it. It’s, it’s like they automatically in fact, I noticed one of my good friends, she’s she’s even hesitant really to complain about anything, because she felt like especially with me, because it’s like she knows that whatever issue she has, as a black woman, minus four, you know, it will be different. But anyway, I say that to say when you’re on the receiving end of privilege, right? So when you’re the light skinned blonde long hair, good hair person. There’s an element of guilt. I think, though it like you said, you can’t choose it, you don’t mean to make it that way. So how can you work through, you know, how would you have any skills for because, because I just think about this with I mean, my mom, you know my mom, she’s not like white, but she’s a lot lighter than me and not a lot, but she’s lighter than me. And she definitely has what will be considered good hair and is longer. And so I remember as an adult she didn’t she didn’t she avoided it as a child because she was just hoping it would go away. I think she noticed it. But she didn’t know what to say, you know, I was just like, Yeah, I’m lighter than you. Like, you know, like, what do you do? So as an adult, I can tell that she’s you know, we’ve we’ve been able to have a conversation. And she’s been like, it’s almost like, she feels bad. Like she, she you know what I mean? Which I don’t want her to feel bad. I just want her to stand. You know, and this has become more important because my daughter looks like me. It’s funny, she looks like my mom, but she has my features. So how do you how do you? How does a person who benefits from that unearned privilege address it? And not because I don’t again, without feeling guilty? Like they did something wrong?
Dr. Erika Dawkins
I’m gonna be honest with you, Dr. Omar, I don’t know that there’s a way to avoid the guilt. Right? So I think about this work. And that process is being very similar to anti racism work that we ask for people of privilege to do. And in order to be anti racist. It’s not saying I’m not racist, it’s saying I acknowledge that racism exists, and that I will consciously make an effort towards being more, you know, anti racist in my attitudes, beliefs, positions and behaviors. And so for someone who benefits from privilege, acknowledging that privilege exists is super important, and then being a part of saying, this level of privilege is not okay. And so whether that is in their own attitudes, so there may be some work that our fair skinned folks need to do if they hold this belief that because they are fair skinned, that they should have different levels of access, that they are inherently better. That is something that has to be unlearned, because that attitude is not okay, it’s not the fact that you are fair skinned, that’s the problem. It’s the fact that you are fair skinned and believe that you are better than someone who is not that is the problem. And so being able to acknowledge areas have privilege, and be a active participant and an agent of change around held attitudes and beliefs. So when you see a level of discrimination happening against someone who is darker than you being able to call it out, being able to educate others about the fact that you should not receive separate treatment, and part of that, you know, like we say to our white collar counterparts, maybe having to give up that privilege in the process of advocating that others receive equitable treatment. And so I think that is the message that I would say to someone who benefits from having a level of privilege that comes with colorism is that it is going to be hard work, it is not going to feel good. But if you are truly interested in seeing issues around colorism eradicated then that means doing the work and making that a part of your daily commitment.
Dr. Connie Omari
Love it, love it. I love everything about what we discussed today. It was a much needed conversation. Thank you for your flexibility and b this is this is a true expert when we can start on one subject. Let’s transition to something else and not skip a beat. So I appreciate that. I know our guests are gonna want to follow up with you. So please, how can they get in touch with you and find you online? Sure.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
So they can visit my website which is www dot revolutionary perspectives.com Same Instagram handle revolutionary perspectives same on Facebook revolutionary perspectives, LLC. I’m also on Tik Tok and yes, yes everywhere. clubhouse under revote perspex. But you know, feel free to Google me Erica with a K E R I K am Dawkins and I should pop up.
Dr. Connie Omari
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you for your time today. You are amazing. And your feedback has been just priceless. And I know you’ve inspired others because you’ve inspired me. Thank you so much.
Dr. Erika Dawkins
Thank you. All right, too. care Bye!